Lampizator Valve / Tube Rolling Review Thread

[Golum]

You've got a great collection massing up Goran.

Can’t keep track what i have anymore - many are in the basement locked - actually i practice keeping social (tube) distancing with them...

 

[Golum]

Have a chance to get a U52. Very interested in this one
Got KR242's on the way too Goran, thanks to your help with all the reviews !

Always happy to help if i can...hope you’ll like the 242s

 

[highstream]

Goran, Looks like you got lucky. -- or rich... A quick jaunt to eBay shows the WE274B going for $1100, $999, $1759 and $2300 (NOS engraved). Btw, I liked the U50 better, although my U52 listen was relatively short.

The Supratek Chardonnay preamp arrived yesterday and set up today. The included Sovietek(?) 6SN7s weren't bad, clear and on the dry side on first listen, but swapping in a new pair of Shuguang WE6SN7s opened things up a lot. It can also take a better rectifier in the separate power supply and even KT66's in the main piece. So this should be fun.

Something never mentioned even in passing on the various tube threads is power fuses, even though a good aftermarket one often offers as much improvement as a tube change. I highly recommend the SR Orange fuses (not the cool Blue), which are a good half step up from the very good Audio Magic Ultimate Beeswax that I'd been happily using throughout my system for a couple of years. The Orange are nicely balanced, good tone, staging and transparency, and added a degree of warmth that was missing from the Blue. I'm not sure about AM's latest, the Premier Ultimate Beeswax, which I never got to fully check because my first and only one, picked up used at one month old, literally fell apart on first pull to check direction. I'll be posting about that on the fuses thread soon.

 

[TKK]

No he said old tubes shouldn't be shipped as the filaments become fragile.

I haven't found that to be the case in decades. New valves fail because they just don't make them like they used to.

I had a few of JJ EL84s fail on me out of 12 bought brand new. Had to by four more. And 12 Golden Dragon EL84s - 10 died within 3 months.

The phenomenal sounding Tesla KT88 new production now EAT - three failed from a quad within months. All older Teslas of all sorts have been fine and I have had many.

A TJ 2A3 expired before it's time.

Look at the woes people have had with ELROG before the change of ownership.

I had to send back my RK300Bs due to a production flaw.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

The truth is they just don't make them like they used to.

I believe what Lukasz said about NOS and new tubes, and that is basically why I would try to avoid buying additional NOS tubes. However, my limited experience was kind of bad with new tubes (many) and good with the old ones (just a pair and a quad set). Specially for the rect. tube from KR, it somehow really made me mad. The first one was broken during the shipment--one of the metal panel fell, got returned immediately. The second one was good at the beginning, after about 3-4 weeks, it start having noise floor as it gets hot. A funny thing is that I found out the noise is probably picked by my PX25 from the physical noise made by the rect. tube. So I returned it again. Then I got my third one, actually I haven't even tried it yet, the metal panel just makes crazy noise when I hold it on my hands and slightly shake it--feels like I have a ring bell on my hand. Another "bad" experience was the newly produced psvane el34ph... On the other hand, some new tubes are great in terms of quality and sound, like TAKs. You can feel the quality when you hold them. Currently I am looking for some great NOS EL34, because I couldn't find any good ones with the newly produced EL34...

 

[Golum]

Goran, Looks like you got lucky. -- or rich... A quick jaunt to eBay shows the WE274B going for $1100, $999, $1759 and $2300 (NOS engraved). Btw, I liked the U50 better, although my U52 listen was relatively short.

The Supratek Chardonnay preamp arrived yesterday and set up today. The included Sovietek(?) 6SN7s weren't bad, clear and on the dry side on first listen, but swapping in a new pair of Shuguang WE6SN7s opened things up a lot. It can also take a better rectifier in the separate power supply and even KT66's in the main piece. So this should be fun.

Something never mentioned even in passing on the various tube threads is power fuses, even though a good aftermarket one often offers as much improvement as a tube change. I highly recommend the SR Orange fuses (not the cool Blue), which are a good half step up from the very good Audio Magic Ultimate Beeswax that I'd been happily using throughout my system for a couple of years. The Orange are nicely balanced, good tone, staging and transparency, and added a degree of warmth that was missing from the Blue. I'm not sure about AM's latest, the Premier Ultimate Beeswax, which I never got to fully check because my first and only one, picked up used at one month old, literally fell apart on first pull to check direction. I'll be posting about that on the fuses thread soon.

Hi Gene,

I’m glad your preamp finally arrived and i do hope it will bring your system to the level where you want to have it. Let it settle and then check the options you have with the different tubes.
Rectifier wise i would love to be rich but unfortunately or fortunately I’m not, but sometimes when you meet some people sharing the same passion and your are normal, kind and helpful without expecting or asking anything in return you get unexpectedly few things which really make your day/week. So yes, this shitty world can be good sometimes.
Yes i have those fuses but consulting with few guys “in the know” i got HFT supreme silver ones and i even did not check other options. I had a feeling they brought some additional clarity to the table...

Cheers and take care,
G

 

[christoph]

Hi everybody, some things to consider when tube rolling.
1. Never trust internet opinions, because every circuit is different and every operating point is different, hence there is no defined specific tube sound and disappointment can be lurking on the horizon. By far the best way to save huge money losses is to borrow before buying. Trying in YOUR SYSTEM not in your friend's system.
2. Listen to your equipment manufacturer advices. We for example have 40 different tube types to try and when we choose one - it is because it sounds best. Anybody as a hobbyist, privately - cant try so many tubes and what do you do with the "not selected" ones afterwards ?

3. used tubes of DHT type should be forbidden from shipping. Their cathode is a thin tungsten or other metal string, which gets VERY fragile with hours of usage. So a tube may be 50 years old, of which 20 years it was used, their guts are more fragile than faberge egg. So if you get this 1000$ tube and it crackles - the seller will say SORRY - it was perfect when I shipped it. New tubes can be shipped safely, but not old.

4. "Brands" do not guarantee any consistency. Similar tubes have been made by any plant for many different brands, also companies helped each other and made for each other complementary portfolio positions, for example Haarlan plant made the legendary ECC182 for Valvo, Philips, Siemens, Mullard, Amperex and probably some other as well. There is no such thing as a Philips sounding better than valvo. Also easch plant buys materials from many sources, and one metal is not the same as another metal, so especially across the plants and across the time - tubes hugely varied.

5. The so called getters are not getters, they are getter generators. What people refer to as getters - do not play any role, do not play any music, do not influence the sound, dont have any influence on anything whatsoever. It may however make some sens if a different tube tybe has a different shape of "getter" that may indicate overall assembly difference and it may mean a diferent sound. Thats how we can interpret saying like: the 6SN7 with D shape getter sounds better than the one with O getter. For the record: a getter is the silver shiny mirror stuff on the glass - a deposit of ions.

6. If you have say a Lampizator DAC and you buy a super precious set of DHT tubes, what you do is called sometimes "tube training" or "regeneration". You wanna gently bring to life a tube that maybe spend 30 years doing nothing. To collect all unwanted gasses and put them on the getters and not enjoy fireworks - you first do heating session without power applied to anode. You do this: first, remove the rectifier tube from the amp or DAC to "remove" high voltage component of the anode supply. This way the music tubes will be fed with heater only. Then set the DAC heater switch to the lowest current available (the furthest from 300B which is always the highest). (I mean even if it is actually a 300B use the lowest "wrong" setting). Instert the newly acquired unknown condition tubes. Keep them warm for 24 hrs. After that, if there is a "correct" setting for the new tubes thats not the one you used - we call it nominal - use that another 24 hrs. After the total of 48 hrs insert the rectifier tube (while DAC is ON) and let it warm up. Very slowly the new tubes will be given anode high voltage and will start conducting the current.

7. Remember, the current is flowing in the tube from bottom - up. From Cathode to anode - the whole magic of tube operation happens IN THE CATHODE , the electron generation and emission to the space around the wire, which in this case is the filiament - the tiny glowing string. That is your tube! Magic happens! The whole black box inside is just anode - almost unimportant. It only collects the electrons and sends them to the ground. So it doesnt matter if the tube has black anode, grey anode, shiny anode etc - the CATHODE is far far more important. But we practically can't see it, so nobody discusses it.

8. You can easily measure many tube and circuit parameters using only the simplest voltmeter from Home Depot. Having said that, every audiophile worth his salt MUST have a real meter. It only cost 50-80 Euro and it will last a lifetime. For example UNI-T UT70B is an example of an excellent high end but cheap meter. So once you have any meter, you can gently pull the tube up by 1 cm or 1/4 inch and gain access to the pins and there are MANY things you can measure: bias current, bias voltage, grid voltage, heater current, heater voltage, anode voltage, signal gain, cathode voltage, incoming signal strength, outgoing signal level, even to some degree - the output impedance. Just a meter and 10 minutes of work to do all that. No tools required.

9. You can swap rectifier tubes while listening - there is no pop, no click, and no damage to the tube, no damage to the equipment. Just use a glove.

10. it is ok to touch the tubes with your hand (when it is cold !) , no need to be paranoid about a finger prints. Dirty tubes can go to a dishwasher once a year. No - not the washing machine and don't try to spin them dry.

11. The life expectancy of the tube given in hours is in fact 10 to 20 x bigger than declared on the document. Usually it is a ridiculously low 2000 hrs. They give this value for working under ABSOLUTELY MAXIMUM, worst conditions. : maximum current, maximum voltage, maximum power, maximum temperature, any worst case scenario, add to it a safety design marhgin - 25% civil engineering headroom or 100% military headroom, They assume "Sue me if you want" conditions. Using the same strict conditions, a passenger car would be guaranteed for a week.
In practical life in a DAC, all tubes should last a lifetime. 2000 Hrs is a sick joke.
And lastly - the world has accumulated the supply of tubes that can keep our industry going for another 600-800 years even without new production.

Thank you Lukasz for that extensive and VERY informative posting

 

[christoph]

I believe what Lukasz said about NOS and new tubes, and that is basically why I would try to avoid buying additional NOS tubes. However, my limited experience was kind of bad with new tubes (many) and good with the old ones (just a pair and a quad set). Specially for the rect. tube from KR, it somehow really made me mad. The first one was broken during the shipment--one of the metal panel fell, got returned immediately. The second one was good at the beginning, after about 3-4 weeks, it start having noise floor as it gets hot. A funny thing is that I found out the noise is probably picked by my PX25 from the physical noise made by the rect. tube. So I returned it again. Then I got my third one, actually I haven't even tried it yet, the metal panel just makes crazy noise when I hold it on my hands and slightly shake it--feels like I have a ring bell on my hand. Another "bad" experience was the newly produced psvane el34ph... On the other hand, some new tubes are great in terms of quality and sound, like TAKs. You can feel the quality when you hold them. Currently I am looking for some great NOS EL34, because I couldn't find any good ones with the newly produced EL34...

Regarding the KR and RK recties, this is absolutely NOT the experience of me and my circle of friends.
We together own at least 15 to 20 pieces of those KR and RK rectifiers and as far as I know, none of all of them is faulty and at least my several ones are in heavy use.

As for the PSvanes, I ordered two pieces of the ACME series 274B rectifiers and one rattles slightly when gently shaken (BEWARE, only try this when the tube is cold!! and very gently!) and the other one does not rattle at all.
I then asked around my friends who also own the ACME 274B and guess what, all of them rattle slightly
So my one that is NOT rattling is the odd one, go figure...
Oh, and one friend of mine got one of his PSvane EL34 pair DOA.

Are you intending to use the EL34 for a Lampi TRP DAC?
Because there are quite a few excellent sounding rather cheap and accessible current production alternatives.
For example the current production Genalex KT77 Gold Lion is comparatively dirt cheap and sounds absolutely fabulous!
Or the only a little more expensive PSvane 6CA7-TII, our new QueenBee in the TRP.

 

[christoph]

Something never mentioned even in passing on the various tube threads is power fuses, even though a good aftermarket one often offers as much improvement as a tube change. I highly recommend the SR Orange fuses (not the cool Blue), which are a good half step up from the very good Audio Magic Ultimate Beeswax that I'd been happily using throughout my system for a couple of years. The Orange are nicely balanced, good tone, staging and transparency, and added a degree of warmth that was missing from the Blue. I'll be posting about that on the fuses thread soon.

How much are those SR Orange fuses? Do you use them in all your gear?
Do they also need some 27 thousand hours to burn-in?
Yes, please report in the fuses thread
Oh, can you link to that thread, please?

 

[christoph]

Yes i have those fuses but consulting with few guys “in the know” i got HFT supreme silver ones and i even did not check other options. I had a feeling they brought some additional clarity to the table...

Do you have the SR Orange laying around?
How much are those HFT supreme silver ones?

 

[Golum]

Do you have the SR Orange laying around?
How much are those HFT supreme silver ones?

Noooo, never had those SR ones but I believe Vincent in Jakarta is using those as well. @Lee Henley was raving about HFT Supreme so I got one for Pac (despite the fact I had several same ones but for the power amp). If I remember correctly they are around 50x1EUR coin...

 

[christoph]

Noooo, never had those SR ones but I believe Vincent in Jakarta is using those as well. @Lee Henley was raving about HFT Supreme so I got one for Pac (despite the fact I had several same ones but for the power amp). If I remember correctly they are around 50x1EUR coin...

Thanks.
Fifty times one Euro coins seems accessible

 

[Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus]

No he said old tubes shouldn't be shipped as the filaments become fragile.

I haven't found that to be the case in decades. New valves fail because they just don't make them like they used to.

I had a few of JJ EL84s fail on me out of 12 bought brand new. Had to by four more. And 12 Golden Dragon EL84s - 10 died within 3 months.

The phenomenal sounding Tesla KT88 new production now EAT - three failed from a quad within months. All older Teslas of all sorts have been fine and I have had many.

A TJ 2A3 expired before it's time.

Look at the woes people have had with ELROG before the change of ownership.

I had to send back my RK300Bs due to a production flaw.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

The truth is they just don't make them like they used to.

Hi, I am by no means suggesting that new tubes are more reliable than old. What I am saying is that the USED tubes (also new) are more fragile than unused. This has NOTHING to do with how well or how bad they are made, this has to do with scientifically verifiable and undeniable hardening of tungsten the longer it spends being above 1000 Celcius. Take a 2 year old lightbulb (if you have) and knock on it - the wire will turn to dust. With new tungsten - pike fishing filiaments are made. Thats how elastic and strong it is
It may take any time between 1 to 5 years. The tube works perfect, sounds perfect, measures perfect, but the minute you knock it - it opens cathode filiaments.

 

[Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus]

My suggestion in general is to roll the music tubes first, choose your champion, and then go for the rectifier rolling, that will very quickly give you a clear winner once the other tubes are optimal. If you had say two very close winners of music tube rolling, after choosing the rectifier - go back to the finals between two triode winners. After that process - it feels great because everything clicks and snaps into place. It is a G-Spot.
Top it off with good a AC cable and antivibration feet or rack and this will give huge satisfaction.

 

[bonzo75]

My suggestion in general is to roll the music tubes first, choose your champion, and then go for the rectifier rolling, that will very quickly give you a clear winner once the other tubes are optimal. If you had say two very close winners of music tube rolling, after choosing the rectifier - go back to the finals between two triode winners. After that process - it feels great because everything clicks and snaps into place. It is a G-Spot.
Top it off with good a AC cable and antivibration feet or rack and this will give huge satisfaction.

This is exactly my approach. except that output tube performance depends on downstream electronics, so it is better to try with different set ups to see where performance is maximized, and then check if you can replicate that by slowly changing downstream over time

 

[christoph]

My suggestion in general is to roll the music tubes first, choose your champion, and then go for the rectifier rolling, that will very quickly give you a clear winner once the other tubes are optimal. If you had say two very close winners of music tube rolling, after choosing the rectifier - go back to the finals between two triode winners. After that process - it feels great because everything clicks and snaps into place. It is a G-Spot.
Top it off with good a AC cable and antivibration feet or rack and this will give huge satisfaction.

But then again each of the finalists from the output tube combat will maybe need a different rectifier to form the happy couple

For example the Genalex KT77 Gold Lions and the PSvane 6CA7-TII sound best here with the Takatsuki 274b and the RK 5u4g, while with the Siemens EL34 I prefer the ACME 274B rectifier. It's all about synergy

 

[Golum]

Yoda, 24h/48h process you explained applies as well as for TRP I would assume ?

 

[Lee Henley]

Noooo, never had those SR ones but I believe Vincent in Jakarta is using those as well. @Lee Henley was raving about HFT Supreme so I got one for Pac (despite the fact I had several same ones but for the power amp). If I remember correctly they are around 50x1EUR coin...

For me the HFT Supreme fuse is a no brainer on a Lampi Dac. Also to throw another curveball into the pot try and get hold of one of the Ideon Reclockers to sit between the server and the Dac. These reclockers are the real deal, the cheaper version which is around 400 euro's performs miracles but if your feeling flush then get yourself the 3R mastertime version which sells for around 2800 euro's. They way this uplifts the Lampi Dac is amazing, Ive heard this on the TRP, GG and PAC and in all cases the reclocker improved the sound.

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-usb-renaissance-mk2/

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-master-time/

 

[bonzo75]

For me the HFT Supreme fuse is a no brainer on a Lampi Dac. Also to throw another curveball into the pot try and get hold of one of the Ideon Reclockers to sit between the server and the Dac. These reclockers are the real deal, the cheaper version which is around 400 euro's performs miracles but if your feeling flush then get yourself the 3R mastertime version which sells for around 2800 euro's. They way this uplifts the Lampi Dac is amazing, Ive heard this on the TRP, GG and PAC and in all cases the reclocker improved the sound.

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-usb-renaissance-mk2/

https://ideonaudio.com/product/3r-master-time/

I heard the LDMS with the reclocker on both GG2 and Pac with the Berning quadratures and the audionet stern and Heisenberg at Adam's.

What mattered most is the output tube. The Pac with the 242 when mated with the stern and Heisenberg is the best source I have heard by far. With the Berning and GG2 the Lampi 45s sounded best, and that combination was preferred to the Pac with the Berning. It is when the audionet came in that Pac and 242 shone.

 

[Lee Henley]

I heard the LDMS with the reclocker on both GG2 and Pac with the Berning quadratures and the audionet stern and Heisenberg at Adam's.

What mattered most is the output tube. The Pac with the 242 when mated with the stern and Heisenberg is the best source I have heard by far. With the Berning and GG2 the Lampi 45s sounded best, and that combination was preferred to the Pac with the Berning. It is when the audionet came in that Pac and 242 shone.

I cant argue with that as Ive not done that test. However every time I have heard the Lampi paired with the Ideon irrespective of the source and the tubes there has been a big improvement on the sound.

 

[Zero000]

Al Rainbow was saying they are good.