"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
1,523
1,552
428
Yes, we live in a world where no one is to be offended. It seems you are offended by my opinions. And Brad and Kadar are being criticized because their opinions offend. Every now and then someone will be bold and refer to their system thread as something different from simply the typology of the gear or the name of the brands. I did that twice and in the era of the offended, the second time was highly criticized.

The topic here is putting six or seven “top-of-the-line“ speakers on the cover of TAS. I no longer read it, so I don’t know, but it seems like the editors are making sure the manufacturers are not offended. So we got comments like they’re all great and put them on the list and go listen. A trophy cover shot for participating.

We see what stuff survives overtime as being the best of an era. And we can compare those with what is currently the latest and greatest. And then we can judge for ourselves how much progress we have made.

The Oscars have awards, many many awards, every year which they call “Best“. Surely those are nothing more than opinions. And yet, people have strongly held beliefs about the few best actors and actresses. And a very few movies show up on everyone’s list of best movies of all time.
Not to further derail a thread already off the tracks, but I would probably disagree with 3/4 of all “best of all time” lists of films, actors, music and just about anything else.

I haven’t listened to enough different audio systems to presume to even have any opinion on what might qualify as best. Most of what I have heard hasn’t particularly wowed me. I think my own system is getting better and better and am happy with the musical experiences it allows me.

My live music experiences have been far away the best, but all too often are mediocre to awful. At least with home audio, if I run into a bad recording, I can stop it and find a good one.
 
Last edited:

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,328
3,042
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
Why not? It's an interesting and fair question.

I also would ask other manufacturers and distributors this question.
simply there are no parameters. What am I giving to who and why? If pressed my answer i simply no. I dont have a need or seean upside for me.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,198
13,648
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
simply there are no parameters. What am I giving to who and why? If pressed my answer i simply no. I dont have a need or seean upside for me.

Thank you.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,670
10,918
3,515
USA
I and others are not offended by your opinions, but by your superior minded attitude regarding your "Natural Sound".



No, I and others are not offended by their opinions (I personally couldn't care less about them, except when they're interesting), but by their superior minded attitude.



In your case it was not "bold", it was presumptuous. And the consequences of the thread title "Natural Sound" have been extensively discussed.



Yeah, right, there goes the nostalgia trip again.

"Good ole times", huh?

You sure sound offended by my comments about the world in which we now live with no offending and participation trophies. The reviews seem to comply. They don't proclaim what is best, but actually they do with special edition publications and what seem like weekly emails with rankings in price categories. It is never "a best", but always "one of the best". Michael Fremer was bold when he made a Class A+ super category for the best turntables.

My thread title was bold, at least around here, where most system thread titles are descriptive but quite innocuous. I wanted something more, both times.

None of this is about nostalgia. It is what I hear, right here and now, in the present. I was not around listening when this stuff was made. I did not save it from my youth. I heard it and bought it, and it is what I enjoy. Let us not distract and obfuscate.

The thread is about long term loans, and lately about the reviews. I am mostly commenting and agreeing with Elliot. I review that concluded with a suggestion to add something to an audition list can not be very satisfying to those with interests in that component. I guess the reviewer will not be requesting a long term loan. Maybe actions do indeed tell us more than words.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,670
10,918
3,515
USA
Al i offered a solution for this a long time ago .
A Horn / Set / Elite subforum.

Up on log in at WBF you need choose to log in as either an amateur or expert
The experts don t have to answer the same dumb questions anymore leading to the same discussions over and over .
The amateurs can then discuss topics on their own level and can built self esteem :)

If the " experts " detect any amateur with potential they can can get the elite log in code .

Please keep in mind the Elite forum entry is invitation only.

Why are people so preoccupied with an approach that differs from their own? People should put on a pair of aviators and be cool and chill. Come on man!
 

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,481
2,833
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Why are people so preoccupied with an approach that differs from their own? People should put on a pair of aviators and be cool and chill. Come on man!
It was a " natural " reaction peter :)
Then i wont need to read all this superior Horn / Set / Advanced listening skills stuff any more .
Nice and relaxed , but its no problem sarcasm is the way to deal with that stuff ;)
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,790
4,547
1,213
Greater Boston
You sure sound offended by my comments about the world in which we now live with no offending and participation trophies.

I cannot be offended about a world of your imagination which does not exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adyc and Argonaut

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,670
10,918
3,515
USA
Sorry PeterA but when you express an opinion and someone expresses their opinion in response, it does not mean they are offended, far from it. When you express an opinion, you should be prepared to defend it. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences,. Claiming that folks are offended is nonsensical.

Joe, Are you saying my opinions don't offend anyone? That surprises me. I assure you that I am prepared to defend my opinions. I have been doing so for yours now.
 

Joe Whip

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,740
563
405
Wayne, PA
Why would your opinions about audio offend anyone? again, disagreement is not offense. BTW, little league has participation trophies. Can’t say I see them anywhere else. I know juries didn’t give me a participation trophy when they ruled against my client.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,198
13,648
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Joe, Are you saying my opinions don't offend anyone? That surprises me. I assure you that I am prepared to defend my opinions. I have been doing so for yours now.

?I did not go to psychology school over the weekend so forgive me for this armchair amateur speculation.

?Peter, I wonder if perhaps Joe feels you are projecting your reactions to posts onto others. On the one hand, on the outgoing, you say that members should not be offended by people having strong opinions (such as yourself). (I agree!)

On the other hand, on the incoming, you referred numerous times to members' criticisms of your natural sound philosophy as "attacks."

First, I think to describe people discussing audio in on-line conversations as "attacks" is overwrought and overly sensitive.

Second, maybe it actually is you who gets offended by strong opinions -- when they are incoming?
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,790
4,547
1,213
Greater Boston
Why are people so preoccupied with an approach that differs from their own? People should put on a pair of aviators and be cool and chill. Come on man!

Nobody is, by itself, preoccupied with an approach that differs from their own.

What people are preoccupied with is the air of superiority with which some approaches are touted, especially when they do not find audible evidence of actual superiority. At best, they find different subjective tastes and priorities.

Maybe it's the people who spread their opinions with such an air of superiority that need to be "cool and chill". Come on man!
 

dcathro

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
587
742
228
Melbourne, Australia
Really, in which world, Peter? In the very successful biotech company that I work in no one gets a prize or award for mediocre performance, only the best do. Same in my godson's school and summer camp. And yes, the James Webb telescope is the best space telescope. Nobody with some knowledge of the matter disputes that objective fact. And no one disputes that the Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. Everyone knows which is the objective best in those cases.

Yet audio is very subjective, and by the very fact that judgment is based on personal taste, perception, priorities and preferences there can be no "objective best".

But I see where this is going. As Ron astutely pointed out, you always want to establish your subjective preferences as "objective fact". You have done so, to the anger of many on WBF, by usurping the term "Natural Sound" for systems of your personal preference, clearly implying, for everyone easy to read between the lines, that any other system configuration cannot yield as much "natural sound" as your preferred ones.

Of course, if you believe that your superior minded subjective preferences and higher revelations received in Utah are the objective truth, then there must be an objective best on WBF. And that objective best is according to your taste and perceptions, hence your nomination of the Neumann DST cartridge as The Best, for example.

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.
Hi Al,

To be fair to Peter, I think quite a few of us believe that our subjective opinion has some objective truth to it. The difference is that we mainly keep it to ourselves. :)
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,198
13,648
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I think quite a few of us believe that our subjective opinion has some objective truth to it. The difference is that we mainly keep it to ourselves. :)

An interesting and insightful point!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lee

Joe Whip

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,740
563
405
Wayne, PA
Joe, it’s not just participation trophies. It is also the removal of merit and distinction from the schools that might children no longer attend. They got rid of sports captains because not everyone can be a captain. They got rid of the merit academic awards because not everyone could make the honor role. They got rid of the presidential fitness competition every year because not every kid could do a pull up sit up or push up. Some had to walk around the track because they could not run a quarter mile. This is the world in which we now live. It is a sad state of affairs.
Not around here in our school district.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) If we are to be intellectually honest, we admit that some things are better than other things. (...)

Ok, Peter - if we are intellectually honest, we have preferences and should explain them in WBF.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,198
13,648
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
Joe, it’s not just participation trophies. It is also the removal of merit and distinction from the schools that might children no longer attend. They got rid of sports captains because not everyone can be a captain. They got rid of the merit academic awards because not everyone could make the honor role. They got rid of the presidential fitness competition every year because not every kid could do a pull up sit up or push up. Some had to walk around the track because they could not run a quarter mile. This is the world in which we now live. It is a sad state of affairs.

I don't think it's helpful to map to WBF your frustrations in the larger world which you think have some analogous relevance here. You did this also with your misplaced accusations of "censorship" on WBF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: adyc

MarkusBarkus

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2021
1,011
1,668
258
66
..."California Über Alles"
-The Dead Kennedys, 1979. Seems so timely and fresh.

NB: This is only a participation post to be part of the thread. No intelligence is intended or promised.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: tima and Lagonda

adyc

VIP/Donor
Jan 5, 2013
890
414
973
Really, in which world, Peter? In the very successful biotech company that I work in no one gets a prize or award for mediocre performance, only the best do. Same in my godson's school and summer camp. And yes, the James Webb telescope is the best space telescope. Nobody with some knowledge of the matter disputes that objective fact. And no one disputes that the Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. Everyone knows which is the objective best in those cases.

Yet audio is very subjective, and by the very fact that judgment is based on personal taste, perception, priorities and preferences there can be no "objective best".

But I see where this is going. As Ron astutely pointed out, you always want to establish your subjective preferences as "objective fact". You have done so, to the anger of many on WBF, by usurping the term "Natural Sound" for systems of your personal preference, clearly implying, for everyone easy to read between the lines, that any other system configuration cannot yield as much "natural sound" as your preferred ones.

Of course, if you believe that your superior minded subjective preferences and higher revelations received in Utah are the objective truth, then there must be an objective best on WBF. And that objective best is according to your taste and perceptions, hence your nomination of the Neumann DST cartridge as The Best, for example.

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.
Really, in which world, Peter? In the very successful biotech company that I work in no one gets a prize or award for mediocre performance, only the best do. Same in my godson's school and summer camp. And yes, the James Webb telescope is the best space telescope. Nobody with some knowledge of the matter disputes that objective fact. And no one disputes that the Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. Everyone knows which is the objective best in those cases.

Yet audio is very subjective, and by the very fact that judgment is based on personal taste, perception, priorities and preferences there can be no "objective best".

But I see where this is going. As Ron astutely pointed out, you always want to establish your subjective preferences as "objective fact". You have done so, to the anger of many on WBF, by usurping the term "Natural Sound" for systems of your personal preference, clearly implying, for everyone easy to read between the lines, that any other system configuration cannot yield as much "natural sound" as your preferred ones.

Of course, if you believe that your superior minded subjective preferences and higher revelations received in Utah are the objective truth, then there must be an objective best on WBF. And that objective best is according to your taste and perceptions, hence your nomination of the Neumann DST cartridge as The Best, for example.

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.
Again another well said reply.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing