Magico M9

[Rhapsody]

Your political correctness joke is hilarious, but even among "size groups" not all speakers are equal, neither in quality nor actual size.

Also, not all rooms are equal. it is equally problematic to put too big speakers into a too small room as it is trying to fill a large room with too small speakers.

Many audiophiles have too large speakers for their rooms.

In addition, while a large speaker may have more potential, it also may take a lot of effort to have it play at its potential, or at least reasonably close to it. If it does not, it may actually sound worse, way worse, than a smaller speaker.

Al, almost everyone on this forum knows and understands what you are saying. It's a no-brainer.

BUT there are hundreds, probably thousands of people on the planet, ESPECIALLY in Euro and Asia that have small rooms. NYC city as well. A lot of owners of homes with small rooms STILL want big speakers. I would say 95% of these people understand that it's NOT IDEAL. They get it as much as anyone gets it. They still want big speakers in their life and in their rooms. They don't want small speakers that would be more appropriately matched for their room. They don't care.

I can't count the rooms that I've been in that had two large of speakers for the room. NOW, if the speakers have bass humps, then it's a real issue. BUT if the speakers don't have bass interaction with the room issues, then with the owners with totall understanding that the speakers would sound better if their room was larger, but they still want them, they go for it. It happens all the time and these customers love it. UNLESS they might have bass issues.

The M9s mid-bass and bass is controlled IN THE ANALOG DOMAIN, with the MXO crossover. The MXO is a real factor in the overall beauty of the M9s AND is a major reason that some of the M9 prospective customers that I am talking to are interested in the M9s vs other large scale speakers.

I advise against certain ported speakers even if customers have larger rooms if they are limited with close to the wall placement. Another no-brainer.

With Magico and I have installed a LOT of them, with sealed cabinets, there is MUCH less of a chance of bass humps in the room vs ported speakers. But with the MXO crossover bass issues are much less or a worry.

Does it make sense for people to be driving around in Porches, Ferraris, Lambos, Hell-cats on 55 mph roads, no. But they like it, so they do it.

 

[Rhapsody]

There are measurements of the loudspeaker frequency response, the impulse response or the waterfall diagram. From this you can very well draw conclusions for the installation in the room and the size of the room.magico are probably excellent speakers in the right room, can be adapted with active xover.

EXACTLY. BASS is the real issue. You don't want bass humps. With M9s you can control the bass and mid-bass with the MXO.

Not being able to create a 14' high or 30' wide soundstage is a given. But most people that will buy the M9s will probably have close to 20' wide rooms, but maybe not 14' high ceilings.

All of the people that I am talking to about M9s have already owned large scale systems. Some for 30+ years. They get it, just as I do.

 

[Rhapsody]

I had another customer who wanted Goldmund Apologues. I told him that his room was too small and highly recommended smaller Goldmund speakers that would work much better in his room.

He said "Bob, figure it out, stuff them in there, I want Apologues in the room". I did it. With the Goldmund configurator that controls the bass, we got it to sound amazing for him. He loved it.

I could tell 10 REAL stories like this. It all has to do if you have control of the bass. If you can't control the bass electronically, not necessarily in the digital domain as some systems process bass control, but all done in the analog domain that is accomplished in this manner with the MXO, then it's almost a given that there will be issues.

 

[Al M.]

Al, almost everyone on this forum knows and understands what you are saying. It's a no-brainer.

Obviously not. Otherwise many audiophiles wouldn't behave the way they do.

BUT there are hundreds, probably thousands of people on the planet, ESPECIALLY in Euro and Asia that have small rooms. NYC city as well. A lot of owners of homes with small rooms STILL want big speakers. I would say 95% of these people understand that it's NOT IDEAL. They get it as much as anyone gets it. They still want big speakers in their life and in their rooms. They don't want small speakers that would be more appropriately matched for their room. They don't care.

I can't count the rooms that I've been in that had two large of speakers for the room. NOW, if the speakers have bass humps, then it's a real issue. BUT if the speakers don't have bass interaction with the room issues, then with the owners with totall understanding that the speakers would sound better if their room was larger, but they still want them, they go for it. It happens all the time and these customers love it. UNLESS they might have bass issues.

The M9s mid-bass and bass is controlled IN THE ANALOG DOMAIN, with the MXO crossover. The MXO is a real factor in the overall beauty of the M9s AND is a major reason that some of the M9 prospective customers that I am talking to are interested in the M9s vs other large scale speakers.

I advise against certain ported speakers even if customers have larger rooms if they are limited with close to the wall placement. Another no-brainer.

With Magico and I have installed a LOT of them, with sealed cabinets, there is MUCH less of a chance of bass humps in the room vs ported speakers. But with the MXO crossover bass issues are much less or a worry.

Does it make sense for people to be driving around in Porches, Ferraris, Lambos, Hell-cats on 55 mph roads, no. But they like it, so they do it.

Adjustability definitely helps. If I were to have a large speaker (not in my room), it would be an absolute requirement.

 

[Rhapsody]

Just saw this on FB, now this is a tight squeeze!

 

[Rhapsody]

I would also add that a large percentage of the large scale systems that I have installed or even visited were played normally at levels of 75db with 80db levels. Most of my customers have families and do NOT have dedicated rooms. The systems are installed in their family living areas. This is the way a LOT of people listen. They hardly tax the system, even though the system is capable of doing so, and room issues that show up at 85db, 90db-100db are issues that these owners will never hear.

The natural reply is "what a waste", maybe to others but not to them and that's all they are concerned with.

 

[PeterA]

I would also add that a large percentage of the large scale systems that I have installed or even visited were played normally at levels of 75db with 80db levels. Most of my customers have families and do NOT have dedicated rooms. The systems are installed in their family living areas. This is the way a LOT of people listen. They hardly tax the system, even though the system is capable of doing so, and room issues that show up at 85db, 90db-100db are issues that these owners will never hear.

The natural reply is "what a waste", maybe to others but not to them and that's all they are concerned with.

I understand what you are saying. I see nice cars driving around that do little more than local errands and perhaps an occasional nice Sunday drive. It seems like a waste, but who are we to judge?

I heard two examples of big speakers in a small room sound great when visiting David in Utah. Sure, it was not optimal, but the purpose of that room is to show what is possible with careful set up given certain limitations. I've learned that big speakers can present the music in a way that smaller versions can not, plus these M9s are flagships, purportedly the best that Magico currently offers.

My corner horns deserve a much nicer and larger room. If I ever move, those speakers will come with me. Until then, it is a performance compromise just like so much else in this hobby. I gained a lot soundwise with these speakers and the room itself opened up with the corner positioning. In the end, these customers buy what they want, and you are there to put it all together for them. They are lucky.

 

[Rhapsody]

I understand what you are saying. I see nice cars driving around that do little more than local errands and perhaps an occasional nice Sunday drive. It seems like a waste, but who are we to judge?

I heard two examples of big speakers in a small room sound great when visiting David in Utah. Sure, it was not optimal, but the purpose of that room is to show what is possible with careful set up given certain limitations. I've learned that big speakers can present the music in a way that smaller versions can not, plus these M9s are flagships, purportedly the best that Magico currently offers.

My corner horns deserve a much nicer and larger room. If I ever move, those speakers will come with me. Until then, it is a performance compromise just like so much else in this hobby. I gained a lot soundwise with these speakers and the room itself opened up with the corner positioning. In the end, these customers buy what they want, and you are there to put it all together for them. They are lucky.

Exactly Peter. You get it. Most everything in life has compromises. Audio in general surely does.

With customers that I work with, we talk about all of this ad nauseum prior to them purchasing speakers, ESPECIALLY with a BIG set of speakers. The question is if they REALLY want the speakers can you make them work in the room??? Sometimes the answer is no. Other times it's yes, but it surely won't allow the speakers to "strut their stuff". But they enjoy the speakers that they want and in my past experiences I have found that it can sound REALLY GOOD, even though not playing at the sonic level that they would be playing in a larger, more ideal space.

People then make their decisions and we go from there.

 

[Al M.]

I would also add that a large percentage of the large scale systems that I have installed or even visited were played normally at levels of 75db with 80db levels. Most of my customers have families and do NOT have dedicated rooms. The systems are installed in their family living areas. This is the way a LOT of people listen. They hardly tax the system, even though the system is capable of doing so, and room issues that show up at 85db, 90db-100db are issues that these owners will never hear.

The natural reply is "what a waste", maybe to others but not to them and that's all they are concerned with.

That is a totally different ball game indeed. All the optimization of my gear, room acoustics and speaker positioning in my not so large room was based on loud listening levels, up to 100 dB peaks or even beyond (and with even on string quartets very high average levels). That took a lot of effort over the years.

I know for a fact that if my listening levels were just a few dB lower, the problems that I encountered and conquered over the years would have been *much* less.

Having said that, all this optimization has resulted in a sound that is much better than it would have been had I chosen lower listening volumes, which would less easily have uncovered sources of sound degradation.

 

[Rhapsody]

That is a totally different ball game indeed. All the optimization of my gear, room acoustics and speaker positioning in my not so large room was based on loud listening levels, up to 100 dB peaks or even beyond (and with even on string quartets very high average levels). That took a lot of effort over the years.

I know for a fact that if my listening levels were just a few dB lower, the problems that I encountered and conquered over the years would have been *much* less.

Having said that, all this optimization has resulted in a sound that is much better than it would have been had I chosen lower listening volumes, which would less easily have uncovered sources of sound degradation.

Yeah, it all depends on the person, their system and their room. I quiz my customers crazily about how loud they will play, what kind of music etc. I also listen with them and have a good gut feel for whats going on in their room.

It kills me as I like to listen at about 85db with 90db peaks and when someone listens at 70db I keep looking at them to see if we can turn it up. But they are totally happy and 70-75db. I tune my systems for up to 100db because of course I do get visitors that want to "crank it up", BUT the 70db listeners would run out of the room if I turned it up to even 90db.

 

[andromedaaudio]

High power tubes on a high impedance / high eff ( FR) speaker has its own charmes .
I havent heard the bass swell of an orchestra better then on that,...untill now that is

 

[Rhapsody]

I think that each recording should be played back at the level that it was intended to be played back when recorded. Playing "Dark Side of the Moon" at 70db doesn't make much sense to me, BUT I've sat there and listened to it at that level to satisfy someone's preference.

It has a lot to do with how sensitive someones hearing is. Mine is shot

 

[Cableman]

Yeah, it all depends on the person, their system and their room. I quiz my customers crazily about how loud they will play, what kind of music etc. I also listen with them and have a good gut feel for whats going on in their room.

It kills me as I like to listen at about 85db with 90db peaks and when someone listens at 70db I keep looking at them to see if we can turn it up. But they are totally happy and 70-75db. I tune my systems for up to 100db because of course I do get visitors that want to "crank it up", BUT the 70db listeners would run out of the room if I turned it up to even 90db.

Struggling to comprehend why loudness is the issue. Surely the right volume in the room is what’s required. And when I say right volume I mean when the music /vocals are totally Im balance. Too loud and you screw up the sound. Ergo set the volume correctly and convince the customer if they demand more that that will mess with the sonics. Yup. Even if they’re wrong.

 

[Cableman]

I think that each recording should be played back at the level that it was intended to be played back when recorded. Playing "Dark Side of the Moon" at 70db doesn't make much sense to me, BUT I've sat there and listened to it at that level to satisfy someone's preference.

It has a lot to do with how sensitive someones hearing is. Mine is shot

Spot on. Volume is key. Set the volume for your rooom and pretty much everything falls into place and will be spot on. You’ll get all the drama you’ll ever need and your ears wont bleed.

 

[Rhapsody]

Struggling to comprehend why loudness is the issue. Surely the right volume in the room is what’s required. And when I say right volume I mean when the music /vocals are totally Im balance. Too loud and you screw up the sound. Ergo set the volume correctly and convince the customer if they demand more that that will mess with the sonics. Yup. Even if they’re wrong.

I know a LOT of people that play everything at 90db-95db regardless if it should be played at 80-85db.

My experience is that the "right" volume for one person is NOT the 'right" volume for another person. People don't follow what's right, they follow what they like.

 

[andromedaaudio]

No , first bring the volume right up there and put the most demanding music on .
If everything holds up your fine , if not bring it back to the dealer

 

[Rhapsody]

I have found that It depends on the sensitivity of each persons hearing. What sound natural and balanced to me, with 70 year old ears is not going to sound natural and balanced to a 20 year olds ears.

I hand visitors the remote to make sure the volume is at the level that works for them, NOT for me.

 

[Cableman]

I know a LOT of people that play everything at 90db-95db regardless if it should be played at 80-85db.

My experience is that the "right" volume for one person is NOT the 'right" volume for another person. People don't follow what's right, they follow what they like.

Respectfully I said the right volume for the room. If people wanna screw up the sound then they should be advised otherwise. Every room IMHO has a ‘right volume’. Sad that people often overlook setting the volume correctly. It’s absolutely crucial.

if you can guide them on the equipment surely you can guide them on the room volume.

 

[Rhapsody]

No , first bring the volume right up there and put the most demanding music on .
If everything holds up your fine , if not bring it back to the dealer

I'd like to see you take M9s back to the dealer

 

[andromedaaudio]

I'd like to see you take M9s back to the dealer

Then put them to the test at the dealers place , 2 house CD s and 2 with orchestra / piano is all it takes with the volume right up there.
Expect no mercy for that kind of $$$