Master Tapes - Genuine or Fake

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Agreed. Something about that organic presence that is so real and different from other kinds of audio presences.

your latest Oscar Peterson tape clearly demonstrates the presence of tape as a credible medium IMO

 

[jonathanhorwich]

your latest Oscar Peterson tape clearly demonstrates the presence of tape as a credible medium IMO

Thank you so much. Yes, it is quite startling in sound for a 1961 tape. And the playing is wondrous.

 

[Foxbat]

I would just about to say Ditto! to that comment - I listened to it last night and what a pleasure! Thank you, Jonathan for this gem!

If my display was not saying "Mono" I would probably not even notice.

 

[jonathanhorwich]

I would just about to say Ditto! to that comment - I listened to it last night and what a pleasure! Thank you, Jonathan for this gem!

If my display was not saying "Mono" I would probably not even notice.

Thank you too. Yes, it is mono and just wonderful to listen to. I'm so glad you like it.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I´m not always convinced by stereo TBH

 

[dminches]

Not only does the Oscar Peterson tape sound great and contain great music, but it is a bargain at $150. Anyone else selling that tape would charge 3 times the price, or more. I realize there are many factors involved in the cost of providing tape copies, but Jonathan continues to feed us tape heads affordable music on tape. Thank you.

 

[astrotoy]

Agreed, Jonathan provides the best bargains in commercial tapes these days. At last count I have 38 of his albums! Larry

 

[Argonaut]

I´m not always convinced by stereo TBH

How true some times

 

[Pacha]

Not only does the Oscar Peterson tape sound great and contain great music, but it is a bargain at $150. Anyone else selling that tape would charge 3 times the price, or more. I realize there are many factors involved in the cost of providing tape copies, but Jonathan continues to feed us tape heads affordable music on tape. Thank you.

I'm really glad I purchased my Oscar Peterson tapes when it appears no one else wanted them. AKA, less then $20 each. As an aside, a close friend of mine is a piano teacher and she owns one of Oscar Peterson's pianos.

 

[astrotoy]

I'm really glad I purchased my Oscar Peterson tapes when it appears no one else wanted them. AKA, less then $20 each. As an aside, a close friend of mine is a piano teacher and she owns one of Oscar Peterson's pianos.

Is it one of OP's Bosendorfers? Larry

 

[Silvano]

I am posting this on the basis of my experience as a collector and listener of 15ips 2 track tapes for the past 15 years. I am not a professional and appreciate additions, corrections, etc. from others, including several professionals, in this thread.

First, what is a master tape? Typically it refers to either the original master that comes out of a recording session or a copy of the original master used for producing the media.
So an original master may be the original tape, often a multitrack, or the resultant mix down from multitrack to two tracks. I have in my collection only one set (7 reels) given on semi permanent loan to me from the engineer who did the recording in 8 tracks on 1/2 inch tape and did a mix down to 2 tracks which he has loaned me. This was from a jazz festival that he recorded (close to 4 hours of music) back in 1980 on contract from a producer. The producer stiffed him on the job and he kept the tapes. He used dolby A to encode the tapes and I ended up buying a pair of Dolby 361 decoders to be able to play them. Typically, the master tape has a data sheet with the logo of the recording engineer's company and the details of the recording, date, speed, number of tracks, equalization, noise reduction used (like dolby A), type of tape, recording level, test tones included and their level, etc. These are the crown jewels of the company doing the recording and normally stored very safely and almost never make their way into the hands of dealers or consumers. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire for the disaster that destroyed over 100,000 original master tapes). They are used to make the next level of master tape.

The next level are production (sometimes called running) and their companion safety masters. These are copies of the master tapes and are used for cutting lacquers for vinyl records, digitizing for CD's and digital files, and for most dubbing to make consumer tapes. Both the production master and the safety masters are shipped to a mastering engineer. The safety master is a back up which is made to be identical to the production master if there is a problem with the production master. Normally the production master is returned to the entity that sent the tape. Often the safety master is kept by the mastering engineer, typically a souvenir of the job, for their collection. So most of the master tapes that make their way into the hands of consumers or dealers are safety masters.

Production and safety masters can be produced over a number of years, recording records, cassette tapes, reel to reel tapes, CDs and/or digital media produced for sale in different countries or regions, even over decades, depending on the longevity and popularity of the album. My safety master of Miles Davis "Cookin'" album was done in the late '80's, more than thirty years after the original recording, either for a vinyl or CD reissue. They are used by a mastering engineer to make the lacquers for a vinyl release, digital files for a CD or digital release, etc.

How does one know that the master tape (almost always a production or safety master) they have obtained is genuine or fake. First, it is impossible to be absolutely certain that it is genuine. It could be a carefully made fake. However, there are many clues that should be good evidence that the tapes are genuine. Here are some characteristics (most master tapes have at least several of these, the more the greater the certainty.)
A. Provenance – If the source of the tape is the actual mastering engineer, that is the best. An unknown seller on ebay is the worst. I never buy tapes, master or otherwise on ebay.
B. Original Data Sheet - if in pencil or pen, the writing should smear if a small amount of moisture is applied. The sheet may be taped to the box or included separately. It should have the name of the studio printed on it, with the various data typically written and not typed. There should be lots of information on the data sheet, including date, initials of the engineer, what test tones are included, equalization of tape, speed, number of tracks, tape type used, sometimes the tape recorder used to make the copy, what noise reduction was used if any (like dolby A). Copy machines today can make excellent copies of data sheets. Condition of the paper or other signs of age are helpful.
C. Test tones on the tape - normally at least 1K, 10K, 100Hz (usually at 0db) and normally at the head of the tape, sometimes channel identification beeps - left and then right. Sometimes there are more test tones than the standard three. In any case, the test tones on the tape should match the test tones marked on the data sheet.
D. Leader tape at head and tail and sometimes between songs on the tape. It takes quite a bit of work to splice leader tape between songs, so this is a good indication of a genuine master tape. However, most safety masters I have seen don’t have leader tape between songs. So absence of the latter is not a good indication of a fake.
E. Reel and box of the proper vintage on the data sheet.
F. Sometimes the type of tape is shown on the backing of the tape. If this matches the tape type listed on the data sheet this is very good. However, many tapes of the proper vintage don’t have markings on the backing. I showed one of my safety masters ("Katy Lied") to a person who had worked with Steely Dan on the 1990 reissues of their albums. He said, where did you get this? He opened the box and took a long whiff of the tape, pronouncing it genuine. Not sure exactly what he was smelling.
G. Sometimes the tapes have the songs in a different order than the commercial release. The mastering engineer may change the order of the songs for the actual commercial release. I have a few master tapes like that.
H. I normally make digital copies of all my tapes at 192/24. I can analyze the frequency response of the recording (I use Izotope RX3 software). One strong evidence of a fake tape is that there is a very sharp cutoff at 22kHZ on the tape. This is evidence that a CD was used as the source of the tape copy. There are some genuine tapes that have a cutoff around 22kHz, but those are normally more gentle in the cutoff and not exactly at 22kHz. People making fake masters may have a copy of the tape, so that the lack of sharp cutoff doesn’t mean it is genuine.

Finally, tapes are quite sturdy if kept well. I have tapes that are approaching 70 years old that sound fantastic. However, they can deteriorate or if recorded with the wrong tape (like the infamous Ampex 456 or others that suffered from sticky shed syndrome) and they can be worn from overuse or misuse. I have had quite good fortune in my tape purchases, including many safety master tapes. However, I have been quite careful where I buy. Also prices of these tapes is never cheap, and often very expensive. The joy in playing can be well worth the effort.

There are probably other hints that others can make to the thread. As always corrections, comments, additions are welcome.

There are at least two sources of commercial tapes which are made from copies of the original 2 track mixdown masters or even the multitrack master that I have experience purchasing. These are the same generation as production or safety masters. I understand there are others who provide this generation of copy. However, the vast majority of commercial tapes for sale are copies from a production or safety master generation (or sometimes later).

First is Jonathan Horwich who owns IPI (International Phonograph Inc) in Chicago. He records mostly small jazz combos, and some classical music. He sells both direct copies of his recordings as well as copies made from a production master. The direct copies are a bargain at $250 per reel and even less if you buy them during the initial week or two of their release. I own close to 40 of Jonathan’s releases, most of them direct copies.

https://www.internationalphonographinc.com/master-tape-copies

Second is Opus 3 Records, a Swedish company who has been making albums for close to 50 years. They have released a fair number of their analogue recordings on tape, copies made directly from their original master tapes. They have limited the number of tapes made to prevent the original masters from excessive wear. They list how to order at a link at the bottom of their webpage. I own 12 Opus 3 albums, 24 reels in total. In the US, they can be purchased through Elusive Disc (Kevin Berg is their tape person).

https://www.opus3records.com/am_list.html

Happy hunting and listening. Larry

Hi Larry,
I very appreciate your hints about true or fake master copy tapes. I have just entered in this fantastic world, since only two months and as first move I have acquired a Studer A810 (I have already managed to make it professionally serviced and calibrated by the best RTR specialist in Italy and probably in Europe), second I started to purchase some tapes, which the first one from Jonathan Horwich, very happy with this but I must be very careful going on, thus again, thanks so much!

 

[Foxbat]

Do you mean the soundfan.it? I have one machine done by them, they seem to be a serious outfit.

 

[Silvano]

Do you mean the soundfan.it? I have one machine done by them, they seem to be a serious outfit.

No, his nam's Giorgio Foschi, a very long experienced engineer which worked at direct contact with Studer for many years also making some working prototype for them with special features. This man really knows every single screw or whatever inside many professional recorder of almost any brand.

 

[A-Line]

By the time one pays all of the royalty & copyright fees for a real master tape copy( or even a safety copy) for a major rock/pop act the cost will be in the 6 figure range.

Too expensive for me. Would love to have master tapes of the Doors, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Scorpions, ECT.
Master tape copies of little known artists are in 500-800€ range..

I buy the best LP copy that I can find and enjoy it on my LP12. I've always made my own tapes from live radio broadcasts or LP to tape transfer.

 

[Foxbat]

Master tape copies of little known artists are in 500-800€ range..

It depends on what you mean by "little known", but there are many for much less than that.

 

[A-Line]

It depends on what you mean by "little known", but there are many for much less than that.

Robert Cray. He had a top 100 track back around 1987. Other than that he's a nobody in the big picture of major acts.

I've already listed Ked Zeppelin, Hendrix, The Doors, Scorpions...all are considered major rock acts.

 

[Foxbat]

"He has led his own band and won five Grammy Awards:"

I would not call that "little known"... his tapes sell for 500-800 Euros?

 

[A-Line]

"He has led his own band and won five Grammy Awards:"

I would not call that "little known"... his tapes sell for 500-800 Euros?

Robert Cray False Accusations | The Tape Project

tapeproject.com

I listen to a lot radio, always have. That includes very obscure stuff from Europe, USA, and Canada. I've not heard any of Cray's music on any radio station in a least 25 years, probably longer...

But hey if you like his stuff then buy it. I posted a link at the top so that you can pickup one of his master copies for only $500.00 USD..

 

[Foxbat]

You are ahead of me there... I listened to him a bit, it was OK. But I don't buy $500 tapes. There is plenty of good music for less.

 

[A-Line]

You are ahead of me there... I listened to him a bit, it was OK. But I don't buy $500 tapes. There is plenty of good music for less.

That's my point. Lots of great high quality LP's, CD/SACD's out there.
Current production music content & quality is not so good these days, same thing could be said of architecture.

Just my opinions.