Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[hopkins]

@je2a3 Nice article on your visit to the OJAS Listening Room @ USM in SoHo:

https://jelabs.blogspot.com/2023/12/ojas-listening-room-usm-in-soho-nyc.html

I regret not having the idea to visit when I was in NYC in September It is now on my list for my next visit.

The recordings are very pleasant! Can you tell us a little about the sound?

 

[je2a3]

@je2a3 Nice article on your visit to the OJAS Listening Room @ USM in SoHo:

https://jelabs.blogspot.com/2023/12/ojas-listening-room-usm-in-soho-nyc.html

I regret not having the idea to visit when I was in NYC in September It is now on my list for my next visit.

The recordings are very pleasant! Can you tell us a little about the sound?

Thanks!

Being a classically trained violinist, it's always been difficult for me to verbalize music or sound. That's why I tend to be more technical in my blog. It's much easier to express myself through the instrument which won't be appropriate in this case, so I'll try...

This was my second visit to an OJAS exhibit. The first time was in the summer of 2022 at the Lisson NYC with a bigger crowd. Both times I wasn't surprised by what I heard partly because he uses many ingredients that are also in my hifi soup: SPU, 2A3, 300B, Altec, etc.

Unlike typical hifi shows wherein music is played at ear splitting SPLs, Devon's demos are Zen-like wherein the magic of 1930s-style flea powered directly heated triode amps driving high efficiency transducers' ability to deliver exquisite tonal color and dynamics from the recording are highlighted.

The GPA 414 and 802 drivers in OJAS speakers are contemporary equivalents of my Altec 414A/802D + I recently heard the WP12027 horn in my system. To me a 2-way set up (414 + 802 + 32C horn) is wide range enough to enjoy Bill Evans Trio, the Guarneri Quartet to Mahler and Shosti symphonies.

But I can see (hear in my mind) how adding the Fostex super woofer + super tweeters can turn a classic 2-way set up easily into an SPL generator, making it more appealing to Devon's other demographic, which is not the traditional high end audiophile.

I'm running out of words so here are some pics:

And a video clip from my iPhone

 

[hopkins]

Here is an interesting interview of Kevin Gray:

The interview is very long. I cued it to a specific segment in which he explains that the sound of albums were adapted to speakers on which they were played at the time they were made, which could make sense considering they were mastered with those same speakers. The consequence would be that original releases would be better played on "vintage" speakers, and vice versa. Thoughts?

 

[PeterA]

Here is an interesting interview of Kevin Gray:

The interview is very long. I cued it to a specific segment in which he explains that the sound of albums were adapted to speakers on which they were played at the time they were made, which could make sense considering they were mastered with those same speakers. The consequence would be that original releases would be better played on "vintage" speakers, and vice versa. Thoughts?

I am not surprised by this. My modern thick vinyl re-issues sounded better on my former modern cone speakers and SS electronics. My early pressings from the 60s and 70s sound better on my vintage speakers from 1960 and older tube electronics. Even my cartridge is from 1960.

 

[the sound of Tao]

It’s always made sense to me that the types and formats of equipment used to produce a recording have natural advantages in the chance of faithfully reproducing a recording.

But I think there’s more to it than just that simple correlation but rather the gear and culture of a time reflects in the nature of the music itself and the intent of a technology of an era and in its science as well.

The vintage era of the modernists had as drivers truth of process, form coming out of function and in essential truth lay the potential for great beauty. A pure modernist would value engineering that was highly functional, tend towards a practical simplicity, and elegance was inherent in a composition that reflected the spirit and context of life. It was a machine driven age were the highest values of engineering were expressed in how we crafted everything for truth and authenticity.

The post modernist age, the time coming into the 70’s and the latter second half of the 20th century had much more exotic and wilder reactions to order, music and art and life was an altogether wilder and trippier revolution. Free expression in all its forms became valued over function and this reflected not just in the music but also in the production values and in the aims of technology and extended into who were making the final calls in production and the design of the systems that we played music on.

The engineers left behind the strict traditional boundaries and the limits of authentic representation and turned to more freely expressive, larger than life goals… gains of more, more sound, more volume, more bass, more wow, more miniaturisation of parts and more exotic technology was embraced for its newness and next gen-ness. Gear was sold on the zeitgeist of exponential gains in specs, hierarchy of expense and excess for marketability in a new age of consumption and short design lifespans because it pushed the boundaries beyond what was known and not necessarily because a technology or a process was fundamentally, functionally or holistically an advance.

 

[bonzo75]

I am not surprised by this. My modern thick vinyl re-issues sounded better on my former modern cone speakers and SS electronics. My early pressings from the 60s and 70s sound better on my vintage speakers from 1960 and older tube electronics. Even my cartridge is from 1960.

i have found originals sounding better than reissues on many modern cones and modern horns.

 

[MarcelNL]

It's also easy to overlook the impact of using a modern RIAA correction curve on older records, most of what I'm collecting (mono) is from pre RIAA. Using the right correction curve makes quite a difference.

 

[Amir]

JBL Hartfield

Tesla Akr 303

Thank you for sharing videos

 

[PeterA]

i have found originals sounding better than reissues on many modern cones and modern horns.

yes I have heard this too. I guess more precisely I should’ve written that thick vinyl remastered recordings generally only sound good on some modern systems and rarely sound good on vintage systems while original recordings can sound great on both. In my experience. Regardless, I generally prefer original recordings.

 

[Salectric]

yes I have heard this too. I guess more precisely I should’ve written that thick vinyl remastered recordings generally only sound good on some modern systems and rarely sound good on vintage systems while original recordings can sound great on both. In my experience. Regardless, I generally prefer original recordings.

I wouldn’t go that far. While I nearly always prefer original pressings or early reissues of recordings especially those made in the 1950s through 1970s, I have a number of “audiophile” reissues that sound very good indeed. And this is on my vintage system. I would simply say audiophile reissues can sound very good on vintage as well as modern systems, but originals and early reissues typically sound even better on both systems as well.

The appeal of thick vinyl audiophile reissues is mainly, in my opinion, for those who get upset over a few ticks and pops on older copies. Just yesterday I was visiting a friend with Wilsons and all ARC gear, and I brought a couple audiophile reissues including Kenny Burrell Midnight Blue and some old, fairly worn originals such as Ellington Indigos and Sinatra Only the Lonely. On my system each of these sounds awesome (IMHO!), which is why I brought them, and each one sounded pretty good on the Wilsons although far from awesome. My friend liked them and made notes to buy copies of his own. But another guy who was present and who has a more modest system reacted to the older records by saying “Yeah, I can tell it’s old, you can hear scratches.” He preferred the modern reissues. He agreed the old records all sounded good but the minor ticks and pops apparently bothered him enough that he didn’t appreciate the superior sound.

 

[Folsom]

i have found originals sounding better than reissues on many modern cones and modern horns.

They always have more to offer even if the mastering/mixing is slightly odd, there's just more there.

 

[Folsom]

Here is an interesting interview of Kevin Gray:

The interview is very long. I cued it to a specific segment in which he explains that the sound of albums were adapted to speakers on which they were played at the time they were made, which could make sense considering they were mastered with those same speakers. The consequence would be that original releases would be better played on "vintage" speakers, and vice versa. Thoughts?

Sad, because it messes stuff up really... Good is good, contrary to what many think.

 

[Lagonda]

They always have more to offer even if the mastering/mixing is slightly odd, there's just more there.

They adjust/remaster the tonal balance, and loose everything else !

 

[bonzo75]

They adjust/remaster the tonal balance, and loose everything else !

yep. tweak the bass or some such thing, but they know the audience

 

[No Regrets]

But another guy who was present and who has a more modest system reacted to the older records by saying “Yeah, I can tell it’s old, you can hear scratches.” He preferred the modern reissues. He agreed the old records all sounded good but the minor ticks and pops apparently bothered him enough that he didn’t appreciate the superior sound.

I personally don't mind the occasional tics here and there as long as the musical performance and the recording quality is high... I am able to just simply listen thru the tics and can still "appreciate the superior sound", as you say. Oftentimes later re-issues may present themselves to be tic-free, but can also at times sound so lifeless - lacking the body, the soul and the emotion of the original event.

What I do, is I keep three separate collections of my records, all of which are separated into their own genre categories of jazz/blues/classical.

* The "A" bins contain all NM records that have the best performances/recording quality and are noise free. Btw, these contain many original pressings from the late 50's/60's that are not on 180g vinyl, as well as more modern releases that are on heavier vinyl.

* The "B" bins contain great performances and are recorded very well, but may have some tics periodically throughout the record.

* The "C" bins contain records that either I didn't appreciate the musicianship, or the recording quality, or are too noisy for my taste - and those records are to be donated to whomever may find a greater appreciation for them than what I do.

So, for my own listening pleasure... Bins "A" and "B" are listened to on a regular basis by me.
However, if I have friends come over that are "sensitive" to the occasional tics then I only let them pull records from my "A" bins, which thankfully over the years I have accumulated several hundred of, so they typically will always find plenty of choices to enjoy.

Personally, I don't feel the weight of the record plays a role in if a record will have tics or other noise, but rather the care and quality control put forth at the pressing plant, the actual quality of the vinyl being pressed, and lastly but just as importantly is if the record was previously abused by misalignment of a cartridge or a worn out cartridge or the care/or lack thereof given to the record.

Best wishes to everyone and Happy Holidays to all,
Don

 

[Lagonda]

yep. tweak the bass or some such thing, but they know the audience

And it is alway cheaper to sell a new version of a old recording than making a new one !

 

[Folsom]

yep. tweak the bass or some such thing, but they know the audience

Audiofools that'll play a whole album for one big bass bang on a drum...

 

[thomask]

I was back to my favorite vintage shop at Seoul Friday.

Japanese Western field coil replica was priced very favorably.

The shop owner recommend me to get the replica and then find original Western midrange and bass field coil drivers in due course.

He mentioned to me that power supply, bass box and treble horn of Japanese replica could be used for original Western drivers.

I could not make up mind this time.

But I will be back to Seoul April next year to see my newborn twin granddaughter.

Then I try to find best option with advice of Mr Chung of Silbatone.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

you should seriously consider Tim Gurneys solid wood WE replicas as described in 13audio.com

 

[Salectric]

@thomask
What is the brand name of the Japanese maker of WE replica gear?