Munich show 2023 Hifideluxe and MOC .

[Rhapsody]

You ignored that I put two speakers you carry on the honorable mention list (last year Diesis was a top 3 for me and Odeon a top 10…hell, I own Odeons). Bayz was also pretty good. I also mentioned my affection for past Alsyvox rooms…just not the last two years.

This was not about protecting brands that I carry. It was about the sound in this particular room and how contrary your comments were vs. what I experienced with press and room visitors for four days. You really made it sound like it was terrible, not that it was not your cup of tea.

If I'm in a room and we don't get "good sound", which happens at shows, I will be the first to admit it, but in this particular room, all of our partners and a LOT of visitors thought that we had great sound.

You pointed out very clearly that you did not like the sound in the room compared to past years and thought it was a real let down. That's your take on it.

If you, a competitor of ours, can comment on the sound in the room, then there is no reason that I cannot state my opinion regarding your comments.

Edit- I would say that if you were not a dealer/competitor and just a show attendee and made up your list and gave your opinions I never would respond to your post.

 

[Apk99 delete]

Unfortunately I did not rip the old Lamm site, as I have done for many great sites - it was full of Vladimir interviews and great articles on Lamm. The internet is great, but is extremely volatile!

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

 

[Audio_Karma]

Look what Thomas Grimm said about the much smaller KMD 500RT speakers at Munich 2023, below in the comments in this video

 

[thomask]

It is fascinating to read people's reactions to the rooms. It makes it strikingly clear that people can so differently and value the inevitable compromises in systems differently. I've read high praise of rooms that to me were simply incoherent and unmusical. I've read strong pans of rooms that I thought were among the top five. Who's right? We all are, for the things that light our fire and that we're willing to spend money on for our enjoyment. It does all point to the impossibility of drawing conclusions from reading these comments unless you a have confident read of that particular person's preferences and how they map to yours. (I certainly learned of a dealer a couple pages back that I shouldn't bother visiting, because we hear quite differently, and that's just fine for the both of us.) Even with all of the compromises that are being chewed over in this thread, Munich is a great show to visit, IMO.

Everyone has diiferent taste.

I had enjoyed listeing to Western horn systems at Mr Chung's home.

But I am also happy with my Sceana 3.2 augemented by pair of Rel 31 subs.

If I can afford it, I would like to set up big Western horn at my home.

 

[bonzo75]

It is fascinating to read people's reactions to the rooms. It makes it strikingly clear that people can so differently and value the inevitable compromises in systems differently. I've read high praise of rooms that to me were simply incoherent and unmusical. I've read strong pans of rooms that I thought were among the top five. Who's right? We all are, for the things that light our fire and that we're willing to spend money on for our enjoyment. It does all point to the impossibility of drawing conclusions from reading these comments unless you a have confident read of that particular person's preferences and how they map to yours. (I certainly learned of a dealer a couple pages back that I shouldn't bother visiting, because we hear quite differently, and that's just fine for the both of us.) Even with all of the compromises that are being chewed over in this thread, Munich is a great show to visit, IMO.

If you look at people’s reaction to rooms in a show, a lot of difference in reactions happens because the demos are often uncontrolled. People stroll in often with no reference music of their own, and are at the mercy of what is being played in the room when they get there. At Munich, I have often seen rooms not sounding good on Friday and sounding better on Sunday. This could be due to varying reasons…fluctuating power, or the fact that people often rush in newly made models before the show and burn them in during the show.

People often have different ways of evaluating a show system compared to in room system. Some just look for potential. Some look for the whole ideal sound.

finally lots of agenda based reviews here. I have often seen people who like or own a component that I like, go to a show and say the room the component was in sounded great - they do this just in support, even if it sounded really bad. I have no idea why. I would rather say, this is bad…I don’t want you to hear the component I recommend like this, this is not representative…yet, people say it is sounding great. They even WhatsApp each other to support that room online. What really matters for them at shows is that the room gets positive feedback online.

from none of the above do I conclude people have different tastes. I find that with similar exposure, lack of agenda, and sensibility, if similar audition music is used, tastes align more often than not.

 

[morricab]

This was not about protecting brands that I carry. It was about the sound in this particular room and how contrary your comments were vs. what I experienced with press and room visitors for four days. You really made it sound like it was terrible, not that it was not your cup of tea.

If I'm in a room and we don't get "good sound", which happens at shows, I will be the first to admit it, but in this particular room, all of our partners and a LOT of visitors thought that we had great sound.

You pointed out very clearly that you did not like the sound in the room compared to past years and thought it was a real let down. That's your take on it.

If you, a competitor of ours, can comment on the sound in the room, then there is no reason that I cannot state my opinion regarding your comments.

Edit- I would say that if you were not a dealer/competitor and just a show attendee and made up your list and gave your opinions I never would respond to your post.

I made no noise with regard to your right to comment. I you think I am wrong it’s fine to say so. I believe in free speech for all…even those in the industry

 

[andromedaaudio]

My final show preference...top 10 rooms:

1) Aries Cerat. Most realism in a system of still "fit in your home" size.
2) Acapella but you needed to sit in the first couple of rows...further back was far less appealing
3) Cessaro with Opus 1 + subwoofer: However, the big system was not very good...no idea what the issue is.
4) TotalDAC. Maybe some rooms sounded better in some ways but the sound was clean, fresh, well balanced and dynamic. Good value by show standards
5) WE room with Silbatone. Not quite as good as some past years and somewhat uneven but unrivaled dynamics and emotion
6) Sigma Acoustics with CanEver eletronics and a big TT. Really lovely and dynamic sound...best system with no horn driver of any kind
7) Grandinote. This was the best under 50K system at the show IMO. 98dB speakers with compression/horn tweeter and Magnetosoild amps
8) Living Voice. Very good sound but perhaps not great value for the speakers (52K). I think the system could have benefited from having more than 8 watts of 300B power on tap as you could hear the strain when it got loud.
9) Diptyque. Best sounding panels at the show, IMO. More coherent, tonally balanced than others. Being in a smaller room probably helped in this case. Was very good last year as well.
10) Kawero! + Ypsilon. Most dynamic non-horn system. Last year had too much zing in the tweeter but this year it was yummy.

Honorable mention:

Von Schweikert/VAC. Very dynamic for a non-horn system and extremely resolving. However, was not very forgiving of lesser recordings
ESD Acoustics: Bombastic in the same way a Buggatti Veyron is for cars. Loved the ambition and scale but for anything other than big classical it sounded overblown.
Tidal: Didn't hear the Buggatti model but their other bigger model was quite warm and natural sounding even with SS amps
Voxativ: Often I don't like the highs of whizzer coned drivers but they had a new black coned driver that sounded very good with midbass coupler and dipole sub...
Fleetwood Sound: Lively and fun but a bit raw sounding at times
Diesis Audio: in a much bigger room this year and it didn't really work as well as the past few shows. Still lovely sound but lacked some impact this time
Soundspacesystems: Funky, high sensitivity speakers that were a lot of fun...but way overpriced IMO.
Odeon + New Audio Frontiers: Was great when they picked good music...which wasn't that often.
Jadis + Davis Acoustics. Prototype speaker was good fun and lively...Jadis has lovely voicing.
Thrax: Great sounding monitors and all 300B preamp/amp chain.
WLM: Small two-way speakers were a real surprise for reasonable money
Marco Serri design: Crazy stuff with an appealing an lively sound...perhaps not completely worked out designs but a lot of fun.


Almost but not quite:
Boenicke Audio: Had it's moments but overall seemed a bit uneven
Marten: All rooms. Speakers had strong bass in both rooms and overly soft upper ranges.
Wilson/Nagra: Had considerable strengths but just doesn't sound realistic
Wilson/VTL: same as above
WE with new (as of last year) speaker
Avantgarde.Duo GT..something about them with SS amps just leaves me cold.
hORNs: Didn't really gel for me
Goebel + CH + WADAX/Kronos: With Kronos it would almost have made the honorable mention list but I think CH holds it back. With WADAX, no thanks. The whole system was significantly better last year with True Life Audio amplification, IMO
MBL: Always a "not quite" for me because of the metallic nature of the overall sound I always hear...strengths are clear but i guess not everyone hears the weaknesses.
Bayz: Could hear the "pipe" overlaying the sound...otherwise nice boxless sound.
Stenheim + Dartzeel... a bit "meh" but basically ok
Rockport + Absolare: not sure what the fuss is about...ok hifi sound.
Brodmann + Viola and crazy Zensati cables; Interesting and almost made honorable mention

Fails:
Wilson + CH...ummm...bad
Kharma room....ummm....really bad
Kharma + Robert Koda + Wadax (?)....umm...really really bad
Wolf Von Langa + Air Tight: Very thin sounding
Clarisys + Soulution (would like to hear them with something less analytical) very cold and analytical sounding
Alsyvox + Pilium: (last year lacked dynamics with Jadis and this year lacked soul and coherence with Pilium). Liked their sound a lot in 2018 and 2019 but not since they came with the big speakers at the big show. This is perhaps not quite a fail but after great demos in the past the last two years have been a big letdown.


Lot's of other rooms that left no impression on me at all.

Always Aries Cerat first lol
Each year ... Every year ??

 

[morricab]

Always Aries Cerat first lol
Each year ... Every year ??

You’re welcome to provide feedback… even if you are in the industry…

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ll upload today the videos of those old vintage horns ( Sibatone room ) that look like they were from the Junkyard
What is the brand name of those things ?

 

[andromedaaudio]

My Dream system.

Rockport in Grey.
Violalabs.
Wadax in Black.

 

[tima]

Do you know if Vladimir Lamm ever owned horn speakers for his own regular listening?

I'm pretty sure he owned a pair of Wilson Maxx 3s and I saw them in use at shows - of course those are not horns. He frequently used other Wilson models, large (Alexandria 2) and small (Alexia) at shows, typically in two rooms. He showed at least once with the Bionors (CES 2003). He used the Kharma Exquisite at several shows along with the Verity Lohengrin at CES. Granted show relationships and which gear gets paired with which is something unto itself. Yes, the Lamm/Wilson relationship was one of mutual admiration.

Unfortunately I did not rip the old Lamm site, as I have done for many great sites - it was full of Vladimir interviews and great articles on Lamm. The internet is great, but is extremely volatile!

What do you want to know?

 

[jbrrp1]

If you look at people’s reaction to rooms in a show, a lot of difference in reactions happens because the demos are often uncontrolled. People stroll in often with no reference music of their own, and are at the mercy of what is being played in the room when they get there. At Munich, I have often seen rooms not sounding good on Friday and sounding better on Sunday. This could be due to varying reasons…fluctuating power, or the fact that people often rush in newly made models before the show and burn them in during the show.

People often have different ways of evaluating a show system compared to in room system. Some just look for potential. Some look for the whole ideal sound.

finally lots of agenda based reviews here. I have often seen people who like or own a component that I like, go to a show and say the room the component was in sounded great - they do this just in support, even if it sounded really bad. I have no idea why. I would rather say, this is bad…I don’t want you to hear the component I recommend like this, this is not representative…yet, people say it is sounding great. They even WhatsApp each other to support that room online. What really matters for them at shows is that the room gets positive feedback online.

from none of the above do I conclude people have different tastes. I find that with similar exposure, lack of agenda, and sensibility, if similar audition music is used, tastes align more often than not.

Indeed, our ilk is filled with a lot of people that seem to need validation of their choices, and that could well be what's influencing things. I was really glad to attend all four days and use pretty much all of the time available to hear systems. Going back to hear systems of greatest interest multiple times helped reduce the "DJ" frustrations (ALWAYS "girl with guitar"?!), and I definitely heard SQ evolve over those days in many rooms. The DartZeel/Stenheim room would have been a "swing and a miss" for me, save for Day 4, when it all came together and built a very convincing argument to explore the new DartZeel cartridge/preamp offering. But all of these presentations only provide hints for further exploration, in my mind - - no firm conclusions, in the main.

I think there are some definite taste differences of import. While I hear many positive aspects in horn systems, there is an overriding sound signature to my ears that just doesn't work for me. Or Bayz. No idea how one could like that, as the treble presentation has been weird to my ears every time I've heard it, this show possibly being the worst example for me. Obviously, these avanues aren't for me. It's simple. Yet, several commenters hear really like both, and I'm not questioning their sincerity, nor their ears. We're just a bit differently configured somehow, which is just fine. We get to "pays our money and makes our choices", and I'm glad of it.

 

[kodomo]

For me the highlight of the show was meeting fellow members. We had a lot of online chatting with @christoph but it was really nice finally meeting with him and his knowledgable friend and having longer chats, walking around and listening to different systems together. He also introduced me to another fine gentleman @audioquattr and we had some brief chats and exchange of ideas with him too.

For an audio/hifi hobbyists, the very rare chance to experience first hand, the first high fidelity speaker ever (made in 1926) in its original form is a big reward. I felt lucky and indebted to everyone involved bringing down and original Western Electric 12b, and even using a VT2 tube from 1918 for our listening pleasure. These are one of the rarest items in hifi. They also have some strengths that even totl hifi today hardly matches and that is very educational itself. I spent the longest time in total in this room. Visited at least 6 or 7 times and listened to a lot of music. It was also very nice to meet JC Morrison whom I have always followed with interest.


For the rest of the show, I tried to visit this year all the horns I could and some of the rest as well. I will write about a few of the horn rooms as I am not into the others too much and spent much less time in them. There were more than a few rooms that sounded good, at least in show situations which is a hard thing to pull off.

Aries Cerat room was nice and I met Stavros at last, another forward/different thinking designer I follow and applaud. I joked him about his room acoustics and how adding my diffusers would help but I guess it was lost in translation or show chatter It was a very small listening space as the speakers were well into the room. I had the chance to sit in front right but then all I could hear was the right channel and I was so close I heard the tweeters and the rest in a very non coherent fashion. Then for the second time I had the chance to sit at the very back and it was a lot better. I enjoyed what I heard and it was evident Aries Cerat would be able to sound good if setup well in a suitable space. Kudos to Stavros.




Avant Garde room had a pleasant surprise for me. Not in terms of sound but in terms of design. I liked their colibri design and could see that reaching out to younger clients, cafes etc. I could imagine those matching a lot of cafes in Ibiza for example Their main system sounded good unless they had high volume. When that went high up the sound became worse and that is not supposed to happen with good horn systems according to me. Still, this companies look for better design, component build quality is a lesson to learn for me and I applaud them for their ongoing research and optimization.



B&M - Backes&Muller was another pleasent surprise for me. I have not auditioned their speakers before, they are not very popular in my circles evidently. They were celebrating their 50th anniversery so it is me who missed them until now. I liked what I heard, another different thinking manufacturer. I think it was the BM line 60 model they were presenting. The frequency was extended both ways and the sound was really dynamic, I can also say it felt like very low distortion. It may well be as they had 23 drivers on each channel. The twelve 8" bass on the speakers were active if I am not wrong.




ESD room or more correctly ESD hall was an interesting experience to say the least. I had about 4 visits to this hall and one being the first afterparty which happened after 18:00 and they said they were going to play EDM music. The normal listening sessions I had there were very satisfactory and the sound was coherent as we were able to sit far enough. They played classical and it felt like a concert hall if the recording was good enough. It is more like an audiophile PA system but I say this in a good way. It means you need a big space and quite a bit of distance. However, it seemed they did not know which every PA designer knew; that bass is very inefficient and if you have efficient tops, you really have to go overboard to match them. They have missed this and it became evident when they tried to play EDM music at the after party, the sound got cut off. I could easily see the right channel top woofer going into over excursion and even hitting the coil and shorting. I tried to explain this but they were busy themselves trying to figure out what was going on. Just 3 sealed woofers per side for this ultra efficient large scale horn system is definitely not enough. If they wanted to go with sealed subs, they should have had at least double but preferably four times the number of bass woofers. Even then, I am not sure if messe halls provide that amount of current supply to drive those. In that case they should have gone more efficient subwoofer solutions and built horn subs and at least 8 of them... All in all another show delight which would be near impossible to experience at your own or friends place.



Fleetwood/OMA room was less exciting for me this year than the last. I really enjoyed the last years setup, those museum speakers and thos amps looked great. The small fleetwood which was on static last year was playing this year as the main speakers but they sounded quite ordinary for me. Not hifi ordinary as for dynamics and loudness it is above a lot of them. They sounded more like good pa monitors but of course with a much better design and finishing . Their design and finish is good and if you love the looks, it would be worth the admission price. I would take it over a lot of "audiophile" bookshelfs. The small excelsior system is definitely not my cup of tea. When I first saw the photos I though it would be a JBL paragon size thing but it is very small and its design really did not work for me. I did not listen to it so I can not comment on sound. One highlight of this room is the music they play. At least I heard some funky tunes and variety of genres there! They also had beautiful photography books. It is a company that has a story and they know how to market it. They want to be hip and they are.



Klipsch demo room which had the Jubilee setup was one of the rooms I promised to visit as one of my friends seriously considered getting one. Now, contrary to most I love Klipsch. It is because they were the first hifi speakers that I heard when I was a child. Klipsch were where my journey has started. I still own heavily modified Klipschorns as a second system. Back to Jubilee! Roy Delgado is a designer who is one of the top for horn design and this modified tractrix profile with celestion axi and the special phase plug has become some kind of a legend in some limited circles. I had three different listening sessions there and I was underwhelmed. I do not know what they did wrong but these speakers can surely play better than this. First time I went the sound was harsh, the second time I was there it sounded busy (which should be the opposite, it should play relaxed), third time I felt like spectral balance was again tilted towards highs. Very dynamic, good off-axis sound but were problematic sounding for me to say the least at this show. Still, there is one more thing to get from the Klipsch room. Check the pricing of their cornwalls, la scalas etc. The pricing is very good in contrast with the rest of the show. Sill bookshelfs that cost 30k and a beautiful cornwall is costing just 9k.



Odeon is another company who succeeded to have good sound in show conditions. There is not much to say about it, it sounded coherent and good. Open, dynamic and coherent sound. It did not excite me very much but there is also not much to fault. Just personal preferences. Sadly, my Odeon room photo sucks so I am sorry.


Stein Music has brought their top line Bob L. I heard the fairfied four there and I know this recording. The texture was there, the dynamics were there, the balance was right. The only thing I think I can b*tch about is the midbass. I would have liked a more airier sounding one as it sounded a little thick for me. This is my view and the designer most probably is happy with it and I think he succeeded in what he wanted to do.




Tune Audio I have visited briefly. I think it was their Avaton model. It sounded good, brought the good qualities of a horn speaker. but may have had some of the bad as well. The looks don't do it for me and I felt like it could be more refined and the bass sounding more coherent with the rest. The off axis response felt like a big change and I wonder how that would translate to a room power response. I am talking more about what these systems are missing so do not get me wrong, this room sounded good too. If you had any of these systems in your house, I am sure they could be tuned to sound very good.



I guess the only other horn manufacturing loudspeaker company at MOC that I did not review here is Lorenzo Audio labs but they were most probably horns from only above 800hz, so I can be excused I missed Admire Audio from last year, wish they were here again.

 

[bonzo75]

But all of these presentations only provide hints for further exploration, in my mind - - no firm conclusions, in the main.

That is all that shows or videos are meant to to.

While I hear many positive aspects in horn systems, there is an overriding sound signature to my ears that just doesn't work for me. Or Bayz.

I just don't accept that statement These statements are made by people who do not have much exposure to horn systems. Notice how you single out Bayz as a specific model of speaker, but group horn systems generally - latter is fine if people know you have done many horn systems and you sometimes use a shortcut to group things instead of repeating them, but here that is not the case. As you know I advocate horns, and I do not like most of them (I am referring to a very select few I have specified many times over, I would buy a cone over the rest). And that would go for many horn advocates. So if someone did a horn immersion by walking around Munich and occasionally heard the Duo or something and made a statement on how horns cup, I will say do some hard work. Cones are easily available to listen to, good or bad. For the good horns, you really need to put in some effort to listen. Back in 2016 Ron did a weekend tour of Munich and is on record on this forum saying he completed horn immersion and did not think horns were suitable for him. Over the next few years after some travelling he waxed lyrical of Jeroen's Cessaro Zeta, General's Pnoe, and DDK's Bionors. None of those speakers have any similarities.

 

[tima]

For me the highlight of the show was meeting fellow members.

Excellent write-up, Okan - an enjoyable read.

 

[bonzo75]

I think the best thing about this year's show is getting back home and just loving my own system more than anything else there.

Almost.

C'mon, be honest. There isn't anything better. No need for humility after all these years.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Back in 2016 Ron did a weekend tour of Munich and is on record on this forum saying he completed horn immersion and did not think horns were suitable for him. Over the next few years after some travelling he waxed lyrical of Jeroen's Cessaro Zeta, General's Pnoe, and DDK's Bionors. None of those speakers have any similarities.

I can't quite agree with this characterization or the suggested evolution. My Munich horn immersion resulted in tremendous respect for several horn systems, which respect has continued. I developed a quick appreciation for horns generally with respect to their jump factor and dynamics and "aliveness."

I was quite ga-ga over the Tune Audio Avaton. I concluded even back then that if my primary musical genre interest were jazz, or jazz and classical, I definitely would have a horn system. I never purchased horns, but I do not consider them unsuitable for me.

Waxing lyrical over friends' systems during visits I think is natural when you visit friends.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Horns - Dogma

 

[bonzo75]

I can't quite agree with this characterization or the suggested evolution. My Munich horn immersion resulted in tremendous respect for several horn systems, which respect has continued. I was quite ga-ga over the Tune Audio Avaton. I concluded even back then that if my primary musical genre interest were jazz, or jazz and classical, I definitely would have a horn system. I never purchased horns, but I do not consider them unsuitable for me.

Waxing lyrical over friends' systems during visits I think is natural when you visit friends.

I am referring to your 2016 tour not 2018

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am referring to your 2016 tour not 2018

Okay. I don't really remember my 2016 tour.