Munich show 2023 Hifideluxe and MOC .

Whbgarrett

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Correct, but it was resurrected in 1976 and used in modified form (some would say it "evolved") for another 10 years as shown in the Hollywood '84 photo. It was however reduced significantly size significantly due to new efficiencies in amp and speaker technology. That said, modern systems today are every bit its equal as it should be 40 years later. Although the Wall of Sound could reproduce music heard clearly 1/4 mile away, I attended some live shows at Bethel Woods last summer that I swear could be hear miles away (i.e. Earth Wind and Fire clocking in at 107dB, post #747, https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/recent-concerts-youve-enjoyed.3840/page-38#post-821180). You know its loud when you need 2 pair of ear plugs!
That photo is from 7/21/74. They retired the Wall of Sound after their shows at Winteand in October of 1974, and then took a hiatus from touring until June of 1976, at which point they used a much more conventional line array PA system.

As someone who went to a lot of Dead shows, the band looked a lot different by 1984. Just look at this photo of Garcia from 7/4/84. He had put on a lot of weight and had, dare I say it, a touch of gray.
 

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Whbgarrett

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That photo is from 7/21/74. They retired the Wall of Sound after their shows at Winteand in October of 1974, and then took a hiatus from touring until June of 1976, at which point they used a much more conventional line array PA system.

As someone who went to a lot of Dead shows, the band looked a lot different by 1984. Just look at this photo of Garcia from 7/4/84. He had put on a lot of weight and had, dare I say it, a touch of gray.
Actually, it may have been several years before they used an actual line array vs speakers stacked on the stage. But the Wall of Sound was done after October of 1974.
 
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Bobvin

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marty

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The Wall of Sound was indeed awesome. But it was also awesomely expensive to maintain, transport, set up and breakdown. So much so, that it was actually only used for live concerts until October of 1974, after which it was retired.

Thanks for the correction Will. I misread the date on the Hollywood Bowl photo. My first Dead concert was in '70 and my last was in "94. It always seemed like a wall of sound to me!
 

morricab

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If i would buy a practical system based of of munich it would be Rockport orion or Brodmann Ls
Viola labs Bravo 2 amps and wadax and for the pennypinchers a metronome dac.

Brings us to 130 K for the speakers.
25 k second hand for the amps.
Viola labs Sonata pre amp.
20 K for the dac .

And if with tubes it would be with VAC

175 K plus the price for the pre amp and that would be a topnotch system and the way i like it .
Controlled spacious sound

You can keep your horns.
It’s ok, we know now your love of compressed sound, so that fits perfectly.;)
 

orfeo_monteverdi

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(It was late yesterday, I failed to be clear at the end of my post.
So I fully re-written the Appendice over convergence. I hope it is more explicit now)

(copy/paste hereafter - it should be read replaced in its context - the original post is here)




-Appendice-
Convergence?
It shouldn't necessarily be seen as a convergent sequence (like in maths), which converges towards one value. But rather to a de Cauchy sequence, which converges in a specific way: into a range (and, kind of, "drifts" inside the boundaries of that range). And that range could be seen, metaphorically, as a space for consensus, for a certain diversity of "good products" (otherwise, all good systems would sound the same), or "opinions" over those products. A space, or range, into which extremely good horns (the ones that do not shout, please) could slip into, alongside with "the best" cones, and "the best" ribbons, etc.
But "what are the best in their kind then?", you could argue. Imho, this is far more easy to sort out: my feeling is that there is, more or less, a kind of invisible hierarchy into each kind of loudspeakers:
- ribbons? Magnepans vs Analysis -> I take the Analysis (I owned Magnepans too, love them)
- ribbons (bis)? Analysis vs Alsyvox -> I take the Alsyvox (though much more expensive).
- ribbons (ter)? Some implementation vs Raal ribbon tweeter -> I take the Raal
- beryllium tweeters? Focal vs TAD -> I take the TADs
- full-range drivers and speakers? Lowther vs Cube Audio Nenuphar -> I take the Nenuphar (that Peter Breuninger considered as a potential base for a stellar system).
- cones? BBC monitors? Graham vs Harbeth -> I take the Harbeths
- cones (bis)? my Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary (2nd system) vs Stenheim Alumine Two -> I take the Stenheims (budget and setup required are very different though).


Even amongst various genres and technologies, is it really a coincidence that, at the edge of the high-end, a ribbon panels for instance like the Alsyvox Botticelli X, one of its kind, reminds me a little bit of horns (Aries Cerat Symhonia, to be explicit) thanks to, amongst all, its amazing expressivity ? (92dB sensitivity, 22Hz - short feedback over the Alsyvox Botticelli X, that I could once listened to very attentively - see §7).
Some may roll their eyes. But I contend there may be more in common between a pair of Symphonias horns and Alsyvox ribbon Botticelli X ribbon panels, though they use quite different techniques, than say, between TAD or YG cones, and B&W 800s for instance.
 
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howiebrou

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This is what I was referring to - customers like who think to get 5 helpings of vegetables a day, they must pay a premium for potato chips, tomato ketchup, bloody mary, Pizza (in order to circumvent the rule of having vegetables served in schools, the US pizza industry wanted to classify pizza as a vegetable) . Instead of taking pain to actually try some decent food or do some research on nutrition.
Margherita pizza in the US is regulated by one government agency. Pepperoni pizza is regulated by another.
 
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bonzo75

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Margherita pizza in the US is regulated by one government agency. Pepperoni pizza is regulated by another.

You should start your own thread to debate the two. Unlike some of the audiophiles here, I won't argue against you as I can admit when I do not have the same exposure.
 

Taiko Audio

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the Alsyvox, one of its kind, reminds me a little bit of horns (Aries Cerat Symhonia, to be explicit) thanks to, amongst all, its amazing expressivity ? (92dB sensitivity, 22Hz - short feedback over the Alsyvox, that I could once listened to very attentively - see §7).

The Raffaello trades a few Hz of LF extension (flat to 25Hz) for a higher sensitivity (97dB). There’s also a 98dB setting but then it rolls off by 0.3dB.
 
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Argonaut

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Click the 'System' link in my signature.

I truly enjoyed the horn speakers I heard at David Karmelli's in Utah: the Bionars, TAD 2401s, the JBL M9500s and a rare pair of smaller RCA horn speakers whose model I do not know. I enjoy the videos of @PeterA 's Vitavox and @Tango 's Eurodyn. So yes, tima likes some horns. :) All of these systems have one thing in common.
Indeed they do …

 

Amir

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There are different ideas about performance to price in high end audio industry and I think Ked is right if we consider the whole industry , it means there are some improvement in some area and we can not ignore those improvements but if we compare high end industry to other industries like IT then the score of high end industry is really low.

I think most audio corporations in audio industry are small with limited budget and real improvements need large scale teamwork + lots of money.

smart engineers from class A+ university does not go to work in small audio companies while they can earn so much money in big industry.

My formula is every improvement needs lots of IQ+Money

If you like vintage horns like Bionor then you know both Western Electric and Siemens were not small companies .
 

andromedaaudio

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It’s ok, we know now your love of compressed sound, so that fits perfectly.;)

My tapemachines measure flat 30 - 20 khz since they have been revisered
My speakers i measured myself 20- 20 khz flat .
I have many mastertapes.
So thats my reference

The sibatone / horn gives more air / speed .
But at what cost / logistics ?
Did they ever meaure the FR on that horn?
Did they ever play tiesto?
It had a loud stage /theatre sound which they were designed for if im not mistaken .
Theatre loudspeakers.

A rough loud sound.

Give me mastertape / wadax delicacy sound anytime thank you.

You can call it compressed whatever .
Your aries cerat sound was dissapointing to say the least.
If thats your reference????
 
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Amir

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Click the 'System' link in my signature.

I truly enjoyed the horn speakers I heard at David Karmelli's in Utah: the Bionars, TAD 2401s, the JBL M9500s and a rare pair of smaller RCA horn speakers whose model I do not know. I enjoy the videos of @PeterA 's Vitavox and @Tango 's Eurodyn. So yes, tima likes some horns. :) All of these systems have one thing in common.
My friend lives in CA and he has living voice horn system/kondo and he will visit David in Utah soon. He recently attended munich show 2023 and he did not like the sound of most expensive systems there.
For example Big wilson benesch / ypsilon and kharma were awful and he just enjoyed WE horn system in munich.
It does not mean WE was perfect but it was better than all of those expensive systems.
 

andromedaaudio

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I agree kharma veyron was very dissapointing .

A good / top notch sounding system.to your taste / ears you have to assemble yourself.
You cannot buy it of the shelf or based on reviewer opinions.
And if that means there is no convergence in high end audio then so be it
You can have it for 50 - 60 K if you have expirience/ know what to buy second hand
 

adrianywu

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Western Electric and some old wooden horns ..
Crap sound .
This is like crap sound corner together with Wilson and nagra .
I wouldnt have this stuff in my house even if you gave it to me lol
Interesting observation. I must have spent at least two hours in total in that room. I went first thing on Thursday morning when there were few people. It has the most "alive" sound, especially with voice and string instruments. IMHO, only the ESD room sounded more like real music.
 
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adrianywu

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My friend lives in CA and he has living voice horn system/kondo and he will visit David in Utah soon. He recently attended munich show 2023 and he did not like the sound of most expensive systems there.
For example Big wilson benesch / ypsilon and kharma were awful and he just enjoyed WE horn system in munich.
It does not mean WE was perfect but it was better than all of those expensive systems.
I too have the VOX Olympian with Elysian bass horns. I also visited Jean Hiraga, listening to his WE15A system a few days before the show. Just before I left for Munich, I attended a Vienna Philharmonic concert at Champs Elysees. Therefore, lots of recent references, both live and Hi Fi. The WE12B in the Silbatone room is definitely one of the best of the show, second only to the ESD system.
 

orfeo_monteverdi

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smart engineers from class A+ university does not go to work in small audio companies
Or they start their own small audio company.
With some funding, they can even get equipped with high-tech machinery to produce what matters most in their view (cones? cabinets? patented arrays of magnets and ribbons? horn?), in order to maximize the result.

But I nevertheless broadly agree with you with this
 

morricab

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My tapemachines measure flat 30 - 20 khz since they have been revisered
My speakers i measured myself 20- 20 khz flat .
I have many mastertapes.
So thats my reference

The sibatone / horn gives more air / speed .
But at what cost / logistics ?
Did they ever meaure the FR on that horn?
Did they ever play tiesto?
It had a loud stage /theatre sound which they were designed for if im not mistaken .
Theatre loudspeakers.

A rough loud sound.

Give me mastertape / wadax delicacy sound anytime thank you.

You can call it compressed whatever .
Your aries cerat sound was dissapointing to say the least.
If thats your reference????
Frequency response has nothing to do with dynamics. For sure the WE system has relatively poor FR but it has unparalleled dynamics and that is what carries the emotion of music... not flat FR.

My reference is live, unamplified music. Aries Cerat captures that better than any of your mentioned favorites...given you don't seem to realize/appreciate that tells me my analysis of your preference for compressed sound was not so tongue-in-cheek as I originally intended.
 
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