Indeed, the sound with the Metaxas XLR cables was incredible, even out of the box without any break-in time. The Metaxas XLR are not truly balanced cables and they were letting noise through.
Cables make such a big difference, especially at this level! I could not believe the difference with the Mogami, even though they are well made Japanese cables.
Hooked it up. WOW!!!
I’m absolutely shocked at how much better it is than the DarTZeel. The 18NS and 108 are great and half the price, so it makes sense — but I was not expecting such a dramatic improvement.
Do not listen to the REF Amp and Preamp if you do not want to spend the money to acquire!!
Patiently waiting for my upgrade to REF on both my DAC and PRE so I am getting ready. Currently using the Shunyata Sigma NR v2 but considering moving to either the Sigma -X QR or NR. The Omega -X QR is tempting but seems a bit of a leap. Anyone has a similar experience?
I am using the Shunyata Sigma X-QR power cords for the REF Amps. These are connected to a Typhon T2 and Denali v2.
I'm also using Omega ground cables to an ALTAIRA Signal Hub,
I didn't benchmark or compare them to anything else, unfortunately... so I can't be of much help.
I know that Rene from Nagra 'blessed' these and said they are a good match.
Patiently waiting for my upgrade to REF on both my DAC and PRE so I am getting ready. Currently using the Shunyata Sigma NR v2 but considering moving to either the Sigma -X QR or NR. The Omega -X QR is tempting but seems a bit of a leap. Anyone has a similar experience?
I’m also waiting the pre and dac ref upgrade. I jumped from a sigma v2 loom to an omega loom last year and the leap was outstanding. Now I’ve put a few omega x products in my other system as I await the nagra equipments arrival, comparing them to sigma v2 and omega. The omega x is so good it’s annoying, from what I can tell from the usb and xc. The omega x products add a a real sense of calmness, air and spaciousness to the sound. There’s no way I can afford to swap my omegas for omega x throughout my entire system. I already made my stretch with the nagra ref and am tapped.
For the record, it’s my understanding that the sigma x is better than the original omega. Again, annoying on many levels for those of us that thought we were reaching the pinnacle with omega just last year. But yah, I guess I can’t complain about innovation too much! I may just get one omega x for the nagra ref preamp.
For those upgrading or getting the REF Pre and REF Amps - note that Nagra may have changed the grounding requirements for the interconnect between the pre and amps. In my case, RCA caused ground loops, so I switched to XLR. With XLR, we discovered that it must first be a true balanced (i.e., Pin 1 must be connected to Pin 1), and that the shells of the XLR connectors must not be connected to each other. At least in my setup, connecting the shells produced a really loud ground loop. The HD Pre and Amp probably are different. Note that the REF Pre no longer has the ground lift option switch at the back.
For those upgrading or getting the REF Pre and REF Amps - note that Nagra may have changed the grounding requirements for the interconnect between the pre and amps. In my case, RCA caused ground loops, so I switched to XLR. With XLR, we discovered that it must first be a true balanced (i.e., Pin 1 must be connected to Pin 1), and that the shells of the XLR connectors must not be connected to each other. At least in my setup, connecting the shells produced a really loud ground loop. The HD Pre and Amp probably are different. Note that the REF Pre no longer has the ground lift option switch at the back.
This is concerning to hear as I wait for my ref pre and ref dac to arrive. My preamp will be going to airtight 3211 which only accepts rca. Time will tell.
This is concerning to hear as I wait for my ref pre and ref dac to arrive. My preamp will be going to airtight 3211 which only accepts rca. Time will tell.
The REF Pre XLR inputs are un-balanced, unless you get the optional input transformers, which Nagra does not recommend.
The REF Pre XLR output is balanced. At least in my setup, XLR cables with their shields connected at each end caused huge ground noise. All of my components share a common ground and all are grounded to Shunyata ALTAIRA ground boxes.
The REF Pre XLR inputs are un-balanced, unless you get the optional input transformers, which Nagra does not recommend.
The REF Pre XLR output is balanced. At least in my setup, XLR cables with their shields connected at each end caused huge ground noise. All of my components share a common ground and all are grounded to Shunyata ALTAIRA ground boxes.
Hi, those input transformers are great with fully balanced sources like my former dCS Vivaldi Dac. Highly recommended. But not so with singled ended sources like my HD phono and ref dac.
The Ref pre should have a switch for symmetrical or asymmetrical output? Like the HD, even if the ground lift switch is gone? I agree with our amps I prefer the symmetrical (balanced) output. Other amps can have a different experience.
congratulations ! exactly my experience! Do you know what tubes are inside? several of use have used NOS tubes and been quite happy with the improvement.
Hi, those input transformers are great with fully balanced sources like my former dCS Vivaldi Dac. Highly recommended. But not so with singled ended sources like my HD phono and ref dac.
The Ref pre should have a switch for symmetrical or asymmetrical output? Like the HD, even if the ground lift switch is gone? I agree with our amps I prefer the symmetrical (balanced) output. Other amps can have a different experience.
As mentioned, the output is balanced already.
The inputs can be balanced by adding optional transformers. Nagra doesn’t recommend the this, as you have a transformer in the signal path, especially right before the tube stage.
But of course, some sources will require a connection to a balanced input.
I now waiting for the 5th XLR interconnect to use between the REF Pre and REF Amps. Hope this is it!
1) DarTZeel supplied 50ohm BNC cable with RCA connectors. (We know this is made by Huber+Suhner.) Since the output impedance of the Preamp is so low (<0.2 ohm at -15dB) this cable should have worked well. It didn’t - there was major ground(?) noise.
2) Metaxas silver/copper XLR. This sounded really great; but there was still too much noise. Moving the motorized volume controls also produced audible noise. Turns out the this XLR is not a balanced cable: there is no Pin 1 connection. The shield is connected at one end to pin 1 (I believe) but that is not connected to the other Pin 1.
3) Mogami 2534 - this worked well in terms of noise, but it’s a $300 cable (for 10m!) so the sound is flat and rather boring. If you only heard the amps with this cable you would say it’s nice, but not spectacular. A great example of why cables make a tremendous difference difference.
4) Luna XLR - these look like beautiful cables, with cotton jackets and tinned copper conductors, they match (according to a source at Nagra) the wiring inside the REF amps, and it’s what I use for my crossovers (from Dueland). However, they were shipped with 4 conductors: three pins + the shields. This produced major noise. They are going back to get their metal shields disconnected from each other. FYI: the Mogami XLR shields are non-conductive.
5) Hopefully the Luna XLR without the shields connected will be it!
The REF Amps are a lot more sensitive to less than perfect grounding and to the way you connect them to the pre-amp. According to René, this is a byproduct of the incredible attention to having the purest signal, and because of the 2000V transformers in the Amps.
The REF Amps are a lot more sensitive to less than perfect grounding and to the way you connect them to the pre-amp. According to René, this is a byproduct of the incredible attention to having the purest signal, and because of the 2000V transformers in the Amps.
