Tom, I appreciate your continued interest in my system thread.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Tom, I appreciate your continued interest in my system thread.
Thank you.
It's puzzling to me, because the corner-required implementation makes it a very specialized speaker -- which you are saying Vladimir advised as a general optimal answer about what would sound best with his 18 watt SET amplifiers.
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Good question,
I do not say black background is 100% equal to blocking micro dynamics.
I think the effects of some electronic records is different to effects of ac filters. Some records may have more background silence and less ambient or even less decay but this effect is not quite similar to adding AC filters.
I can hear micro dynamics from good records but I never hear micro dynamics from AC filters.
I think the real challenge is lowering noise without killing micro dynamics. Using high amount of negative feedback lower the noise but kill dynamics. Adding extra shield and parallel capacitor lower the noise but kill dynamics.
Designing a wide dynamic range (low distortion high SNR) zero/low feedback amplifier is the art .
For AC quality I believe in high power AC regenerator.
With right solutions for Lowering the noise without killing dynamics :
- more image depth
- more purity less forwardness more velvet texture
- more dynamic range/bigger scale
- better micro dynamics
- more background silence
Some examples of black background:
Mark levinson no.383 integrated amplifier
Cardas golden reference cable (2008)
Furutech cables
Most AC filters (except Ayre L5XE)
CAD ground GC3
Most audiophile AC cables
With bad solutions for Lowering the noise:
- blacker background
- more colorful tone
- less dynamic / more dead sound
- less contrast
- feeling of more clean hifi sound
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Very specialized speaker? Rooms have corners. This was the late 50s and the recommendation was made later after the ML2. The early Vitavox ads asked “Do you have two square feet of space in your room?” They were sold as mono speakers. Vladimir and David demonstrated newer versions and the Bionors at a show. I don’t know what to tell you.
BTW, I did not say Vladimir's recommendation was a general optimal answer. It was a very specific answer to a question. If you continue to remain puzzled, just call David and he might explain it to you.
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I am sorry , but what on Earth are you talking about here ?
Vitavox CN - 191 are *Not* quite as rare as you like to make out , certainly not in the UK and laterally amongst vintage collectors in the Far East , your version of events rather smack's of a Fable that you have been sold on .
My first Vintage CN-191 mono was marked BL . 7 . 1A on the top of the main bass horn , the second was a partial re build of the rear cabinet due to woodworm , ergo not an essential section of the back horn , but the factory designation was missing , the Third mono which matched pretty darn closely with regard to the veneer's of No1 was marked BL . 7 . 2A , All three were also signed off *Inspector D . Johnstone* … my friend who let me buy the second to match CN-191’s from also had a pair marked BL . 6 . 1A and BL . 6 . 1A , this was back in the early 80’s and CN 191’s came up in sales and auctions a few times a year.
There are quite a few to be seen over in the Far East amongst the Vintage collectors , which Is where my final two were sold and shipped to Hong Kong .
A very nice pair for example :
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If I understand this correctly, the corner horn speaker extends bass in a smaller package by using the walls as the final extensions to the bass horn, yes?
If you think those are the same speakers as the ones I have, I don’t know what to tell you. They are clearly different. All you have to do is look at the cabinet shape.
Show us an image of a pair of these speakers from the late 50s that match the shape of my cabinets. And included a photograph of the crossovers
You know how to Google … Don’t you ? My first and third were identical to your build , the second was slightly different in the wooden enclosure of the compression horn and very similar to the ones in the above YouTube.
With what numeral designation , marked in white paint on top of the main bass horn enclosure to the rear , do your cabinets sport ?
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Even the resurrected Vitavox UK company have chosen to replicate the exact same style of cabinet ( as yours ) for their very high quality reproduction CN - 191 :
www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk
Vitavox Hifi - Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history hand crafting components to power some of the world's finest loudspeaker systems
For over three quarters of a century the name Vitavox has stood for the finest quality in sound reproduction; a reputation built on a dedication to excellence in design and engineering that has remained undiminished. Today, Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history; hand crafting...
www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk
I have searched and I have never, never seen a cabinet, the shape of mine in all of the videos and photographs and reviews and articles in my searches. If they are so common in England and in Asia, surely there would be some images.
I’m talking about known samples today in 2024 of a pair of these speakers that are same vintage. I have not found a pair and I have looked but so have other people. It would be pretty cool if there were a pair because I would enjoy discussing the speakers with another owner.
Some products improve with later iterations. Some do not. I have not done direct comparisons nor have I with the various versions of the ML2 amplifier. I’m pretty confident though that they do sound different. It might not matter to everyone.
Vitavox CN191 speakers – M & S | Ultimate High-Fidelity
www.monoandstereo.com
Even Vitavox’s own original advertising material featured an accurate representation of the exact same revision of cabinet as your two !
You own a very nice condition couple of vintage horn transducers … Be happy in that !
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yes, these things are different......but the consequence to the music ends up being similar. i can agree on that.
yes, that is what i prefer too.
i appreciate you taking the trouble to explain and get more specific in your meanings, thank you. and agree with much of your perspective.
Whilst searching back through an old hard drive I found that I had bookmarked this most informative article which some folks might find of interest .
Even the resurrected Vitavox UK company have chosen to replicate the exact same style of cabinet ( as yours ) for their very high quality reproduction CN - 191 :
Vitavox Hifi - Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history hand crafting components to power some of the world's finest loudspeaker systems
For over three quarters of a century the name Vitavox has stood for the finest quality in sound reproduction; a reputation built on a dedication to excellence in design and engineering that has remained undiminished. Today, Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history; hand crafting...
These do look extremely similar, but they are not the same on the sides. The wood is also different as are the glues. I suspect, if directly compared to each other, they will sound different. Some will likely prefer the newer version and some the older one.
Vitavox CN191 speakers – M & S | Ultimate High-Fidelity
Even Vitavox’s own original advertising material featured an accurate representation of the exact same revision of cabinet as your two !
View attachment 134122
You own a very nice condition couple of vintage horn transducers … Be happy in that !
Yes, I used those measurements to make sure they would fit through the door into my listening room.
I find this quote from the MonoStereo article below somewhat interesting. I do not know the roll off, but I was thinking I get down to the mid 30's in my room. The room walls extending the horn mouth is what the corner horn is all about, and why I do not feel the need for subs in this room. I have no space to integrate them anyway.
"The bass cabinet is an ingeniously conceived folded horn, designed to be sited in the corner of a room where the walls and floor serve to greatly extend the effective size of the horn mouth, and thus bass performance. Loaded with our 15″ bass driver, designed specifically for acoustic duties such as these, it has no difficulties in reproducing frequencies as low as 30Hz."
Thank you. I am happy with the speakers. They remain the only original late 1950s pair of which I am aware. I would like to hear this new production version for comparison and check out the construction. I am glad someone thought the design is worth trying to revive.
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I believe Vitavox licensed the folded corner horn design from Klipsch. Cabinets were built and finished to a different standard and they used their own drivers. They also marketed and sold them at different price levels. At least that’s my understanding. I’m sure someone here will know more about the history and relationship.
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One has to be very careful about lumping things together! Class A covers SETs, PP, SE transistor amps and PP transistor amps so you can see a pretty wild variation in the sound with them... class D is the same way in that some are outright terrible and others are quite musical ceding nothing to class A amplifiers of good quality, even SETs.
Yes, obviously! If you look back through my posts I mentioned some very specific titles.
Yes.
The Hartsfield that Classic Audio Loudspeakers initially reproduced and has since improved also has good response into the low 30s or better. The first time I heard the Hartsfield was a good 30 years ago; since then John Wolff (of CAL) has done a lot with the drivers to improve the bottom end. It too features a folded bass horn and is designed for corners. But most of the time I've heard them, they were not in corners yet did the bottom end quite well nonstheless.
The Hartzfields have a folded horn for the lower frequencies, but the speakers have a back panel. My speakers are completely open in the back so the actual room wall becomes the throat of the horn. The construction of the wall and the material of that surface makes a difference, which is not as critical with the JBL. The JBL can be placed away from the corners because of this back panel, they just will not have quite the extension that they would if they were placed right in the corners to make use of full walls of the room.
The specific design of these corner horn speakers is apparently quite important for their overall performance. Yes, the extension is quite impressive and mine go at least to the lower 30s though I have not measured them in my room to know the exact roll off.
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The back panel seems to give the Hartsfield a bit more flexibility for setup. John has been building them with extra thick material and bracing to make them less likely to vibrate- something a bit harder to control if the wall itself is subjected to bass frequencies prior to exiting the mouth of the horn.
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