Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

[joaovieira]

That's funny because there is another member here that is receiving his Edge today and going to install it as well that I have been talking to via pm.

Question- So with the way that I have my Edge connected to my Verizon router, I guess acting like a switch, but it still has a fixed non-conflicting IP address, did I off-load traffic that the signal going to the server was possibly bogged down with prior to adding the Edge?

There definitely was a noticeable positive difference in sound, I have been thinking that that was the Edge gave a clear audio only path to the server without conflicting traffic on the Verizon router.

What you say?....and thank you!!!

Mine arrived today. Thank you for sharing you experience with us.
i will tell how it works on my system.

João

 

[Rhapsody]

Mine arrived today. Thank you for sharing you experience with us.
i will tell how it works on my system.

João

Hi Joao,

Good luck with getting it installed and do let us know how the install and sonic results turn out.

 

[Marcin_gps]

marcin,

a couple of observations:

0. not all devices in a network have a separate unique IP address. an simple unmanaged switch will not have an IP address, nor does the etherRegen. a managed switch (requiring a login) will have an IP address, as will routers. the ubiquiti edge router is managed, and therefore has an IP address even when operating functionally as a switch

1. since the default IP address for the ubiquiti conflicts with the verizon router IP, he manually assigned it a non-conflicting IP address so i don't believe it is getting it via dhcp (he linked to this describing his installation)

2. running two DHCP servers sounds like a bad idea since they may duplicate assignments of IP addresses........not a good practice in general and could cause unexpected (and really hard to troubleshoot!) problems in the future if the ubiquiti assigns an ip address already assigned by the verizon router (e.g. a device was assigned an ip address by the verizon router, but was turned off at the time the ubiquiti was added..........the ubiquiti won't know not to assign the same address unless specific IP address partitioning is done----a complication better avoided since he wants to keep this simple)

Of course, you're right. I used mental shortcut by writing all network devices I meant PCs/smartphones/tablets...

1. OK, I didn't read the full thread
2. Not if you know what your'e doing and want ot set masks and IP ranges yourself.

I'm planning to wirte a short guide how I built and optimized my simple network for audio. I will share a link when it's ready. I'm pretty sure it covers tips I haven't seen discussed anywhere and the impact on SQ is significant.

Regards,
Marcin

 

[cat6man]

I have the JCAT right now attached to the output of the Edge then into the Extreme. I know I should try that, BUT right now I don't want to touch it, it's stable and sound incredible I know it would not be a big deal. Maybe in a week or two when I'm over the amazement.

i feel your pain and sympathize...............don't *&$# with it

a few years ago, i had reached what felt like the nirvana being described by extreme users, then i made changes and screwed it up.
at the time, i think i said something like "if this gets any better, my head will explode"

i had a personal nirvana with hqplayer embedded streaming to an ultraRendu (battery powered) to an sotm usb->aes/ebu recclocker (battery powered) to a totaldac d1-dual........the detail and delicacy was amazing..........but then i screwed with it and have been trying to get back to that point.

even though i've upgraded many parts of my system, somehow i had stumbled on a low jitter/low noise sweet spot and somehow lost

believe me, if i get back to that i will never make another change that is not completely reversible..........clearly things were happening that i was not cognizant of and could not be understood at the time (or even now........we still don't know exactly what the hell is going on here, do we?)

 

[cat6man]

I'm planning to wirte a short guide how I built and optimized my simple network for audio. I will share a link when it's ready. I'm pretty sure it covers tips I haven't seen discussed anywhere and the impact on SQ is significant.

Regards,
Marcin

looking forward to it!

 

[Rhapsody]

i feel your pain and sympathize...............don't *&$# with it

a few years ago, i had reached what felt like the nirvana being described by extreme users, then i made changes and screwed it up.
at the time, i think i said something like "if this gets any better, my head will explode"

i had a personal nirvana with hqplayer embedded streaming to an ultraRendu (battery powered) to an sotm usb->aes/ebu recclocker (battery powered) to a totaldac d1-dual........the detail and delicacy was amazing..........but then i screwed with it and have been trying to get back to that point.

even though i've upgraded many parts of my system, somehow i had stumbled on a low jitter/low noise sweet spot and somehow lost

believe me, if i get back to that i will never make another change that is not completely reversible..........clearly things were happening that i was not cognizant of and could not be understood at the time (or even now........we still don't know exactly what the hell is going on here, do we?)

My problem is hugely compacted by the fact that I have 20 sets of speakers and you can't imagine how many sets of electronics. The permutations are mind boggling. The great part is areas like the network make every one of those systems that I set up perform at a respectable level.

BUT I don't have to touch from the DAC back so that is the part I don't want to touch.

Keep safe.

 

[sbo6]

marcin,

Running two DHCP servers sounds like a bad idea since they may duplicate assignments of IP addresses........not a good practice in general and could cause unexpected (and really hard to troubleshoot!) problems in the future if the ubiquiti assigns an ip address already assigned by the verizon router (e.g. a device was assigned an ip address by the verizon router, but was turned off at the time the ubiquiti was added..........the ubiquiti won't know not to assign the same address unless specific IP address partitioning is done----a complication better avoided since he wants to keep this simple)

Correct which is how you may get IP address conflicts. Typically one is used as a repeater which is a mode most routers have which allows it to get its address assigned from the master router / switch / modem.

 

[nuway]

You tell me I followed the instructions here

https://itstillworks.com/set-second-router-verizon-fios-6127815.html

I had to go into the Edge router and change the IP address, which I did. Then I connected it to the Verizon router and it worked. So is that acting as a switch or another router?

I believe it's easy to find out, there are a couple of options on the menu: "managed switch" and "router" one of those should have been selected if I recall.

 

[Rhapsody]

I believe it's easy to find out, there are a couple of options on the menu: "managed switch" and "router" one of those should have been selected if I recall.

Interesting, and THX!!!

If someone else, I know of 4 people that are in process of installing Edge routers at the moment, can look and see if there is a "managed switch" and "router" setting AND which is the default please let us know. I did not change those settings so whatever the default is then that is my setting.

My Edge is buried already and I'm not taking it out and going into the menu again. I've forgotten all about it at the moment and enjoying music

 

[drjimwillie]

I have Verizon FiOS service. The service comes into the house to the ONT Optical network terminal. It comes out of the ONT coax to a splitter. From the splitter it goes to the router and the set top box. The ONT has two outputs coax for MOCA and ethernet. The ethernet was not being used. I had an ethernet cable I had made up and ran it from the ONT to the router. I called Verizon and they enabled the ethernet port on the ONT. So now everything ethernet is going over the ethernet cable and everything FiOS TV related is going over the coax. I thought that would allow me to disconnect the coax from the router, but it does not. But at least this has removed anything TV related from the ethernet cable/signal.

My intent is to put the ubiquity router in front of the Verizon router. This way I can separate the network before it gets to the noisy Verizon router.

Speaking to Tech’s from both companies it sounds like it is possible.
Unfortunately, the conversation with the ubiquity tech was over a chat so it was very difficult to come up with new or different ideas over chat.
I am not a network guy and this is all over my head but I am good with ideas.

It sounded as if I wanted both routers to be set up in DHCP then I should program each of them to work in a different range.

One of the options he mentioned was bridge mode. It seems as if either router could be set up in bridge mode but there were down sides as far as DHCP. It seems as if either router could be set up in bridge mode but there were downsides as far as DHCP

One of the questions that the Ubiquity router is going to ask is, what type of signal is being sent to the Verizon router. what connection type from the ISP. The Verizon tech thinks that it is DHCP. It is definitely not PPPoE. He did not think that it is static.
If anyone is interested I could post the chat. He did give me step-by-step instructions on what to do, but there is also a guide for how to do it.
I do not have the ubiquity router yet and will probably not have it for a while because I am using my funds for another project, so I cannot test this.
Also I found out that removing the Verizon router is not possible because it still is involved in some sort of programming and channel guide for the set-top box as well as managing my Wi-Fi to my Wi-Fi extenders.
Later today I will be on with another tech to see if I can turn off the Wi-Fi radio in my Verizon router and if the extenders will still work. I will keep you posted.
Eventually I think it would be good to send the signal from the ubiquity router to the FiOS router over fiber. The Verizon router does not have a fiber input.

 

[nuway]

I have Verizon FiOS service. The service comes into the house to the ONT Optical network terminal. It comes out of the ONT coax to a splitter. From the splitter it goes to the router and the set top box. The ONT has two outputs coax for MOCA and ethernet. The ethernet was not being used. I had an ethernet cable I had made up and ran it from the ONT to the router. I called Verizon and they enabled the ethernet port on the ONT. So now everything ethernet is going over the ethernet cable and everything FiOS TV related is going over the coax. I thought that would allow me to disconnect the coax from the router, but it does not. But at least this has removed anything TV related from the ethernet cable/signal.

My intent is to put the ubiquity router in front of the Verizon router. This way I can separate the network before it gets to the noisy Verizon router.

Speaking to Tech’s from both companies it sounds like it is possible.
Unfortunately, the conversation with the ubiquity tech was over a chat so it was very difficult to come up with new or different ideas over chat.
I am not a network guy and this is all over my head but I am good with ideas.

It sounded as if I wanted both routers to be set up in DHCP then I should program each of them to work in a different range.

One of the options he mentioned was bridge mode. It seems as if either router could be set up in bridge mode but there were down sides as far as DHCP. It seems as if either router could be set up in bridge mode but there were downsides as far as DHCP

One of the questions that the Ubiquity router is going to ask is, what type of signal is being sent to the Verizon router. what connection type from the ISP. The Verizon tech thinks that it is DHCP. It is definitely not PPPoE. He did not think that it is static.
If anyone is interested I could post the chat. He did give me step-by-step instructions on what to do, but there is also a guide for how to do it.
I do not have the ubiquity router yet and will probably not have it for a while because I am using my funds for another project, so I cannot test this.
Also I found out that removing the Verizon router is not possible because it still is involved in some sort of programming and channel guide for the set-top box as well as managing my Wi-Fi to my Wi-Fi extenders.
Later today I will be on with another tech to see if I can turn off the Wi-Fi radio in my Verizon router and if the extenders will still work. I will keep you posted.
Eventually I think it would be good to send the signal from the ubiquity router to the FiOS router over fiber. The Verizon router does not have a fiber input.

Hope this help:
http://thecyberfusion.com/unifi-ap-unifi-ap-lr-boost-signal-verizon-fios-actiontec-router/

 

[drjimwillie]

Hope this help:
http://thecyberfusion.com/unifi-ap-unifi-ap-lr-boost-signal-verizon-fios-actiontec-router/

That article is interesting for two reasons.
1. It gives me instructions on how to turn off the Wi-Fi in my Verizon router, which I will be trying later today. However, I have two Wi-Fi extenders that are wired. I guess they are the same as Wi-Fi access points but they are wired. I want them to continue working. And, I have a third one that I will plug into the switch to replace the wi-Fi signal coming out of my router.
2. The ubiquity tech mentioned the Unifi AP as a way to manage my Wi-Fi output if I got rid of the Verizon router. Still, I would want the Wi-Fi extenders to work.
Thank you

 

[ctydwn]

Thanks @Blackmorec for starting this fantastic thread and for everyone's input to date. Also, thank you @Rhapsody for all your guidance so far.... I have been grappling with this little beast - the Edge ER-X-SFP. Man, tricky little guy. Anyone had luck connecting it after a Comcast combined modem/router? I currently have the Comcast xfi gateway....

 

[auricgoldfinger]

Thanks @Blackmorec for starting this fantastic thread and for everyone's input to date. Also, thank you @Rhapsody for all your guidance so far.... I have been grappling with this little beast - the Edge ER-X-SFP. Man, tricky little guy. Anyone had luck connecting it after a Comcast combined modem/router? I currently have the Comcast xfi gateway....

I suggest first getting rid of your gateway, if possible. Check with xfinity to determine if the ARRIS SB8200 is compatible with your service level. If so, replace your gateway with the ARRIS, and get a good 12v linear PSU for it. The replacement is straightforward, only requiring a call with xfinity customer service to have the new modem added to your service. Once you have that done, then you can mess around with the Edge router.

You will be amazed at the improvement from replacing the gateway with this modem.

 

[drjimwillie]

Later today I will be on with another tech to see if I can turn off the Wi-Fi radio in my Verizon router and if the extenders will still work. I will keep you posted.
I did not get a chance to listen this morning before I added the ethernet to go along with the coax.
I will say that this change made the base slightly more articulate. mostly this change was to set things up so I could put the ubiquity router in front of the FiOS router.
Hi used the my gateway app to go into my Verizon router and turn off the Wi-Fi both 2.5 and 5G.
The Wi-Fi extenders still work. I am surprised and happy about this.
Listening, it was a nice little improvement. It seems as though the middle filled out.
I did not go back and forth with the test but I liked what I heard.

 

[drjimwillie]

I had a chance to do a longer listening session after the system had warmed up, later in the evening. It felt like the system was more dynamic and there were more micro details, guitar chords had more bite and growl. I was wearing headphones and it felt like rhythms where increased and they were coming from more directions at the same time.
I have my Apple TV plugged into the EtherRegen. I am going to remove it, although I am sad of that prospect. Down the road I will probably have to buy another EtherRegen for the TV. Currently it is on the A-side, I would really like to see and hear what it does for that system coming from The B-side.
I will plug the Apple TV into the last open port on my netgear switch. I have a Cisco switch that I am not using and I am going to put that into service, so I can remove the remaining jacks plugged into my Verizon router. Then I will have only the Ethernet cable going to the stereo system and the ethernet cable going to the cascaded switches plugged into the Verizon router. I am not sure if that will help because it will still be the same equipment but it will all be loaded onto the switches?
Last, I will replace the cat 5E cable that I used to test if the ethernet jack coming out of the Verizon 0NT worked. I have a length of cat six or cat seven that I can make up for a new connection.
This is fun.

 

[Kris]

No consensus on Wifi yet?

Tested it

Wifi is a pollution to the Lan signal.
whatever you use to isolate it, brings great results.
I use fiber for acces point before it reaches switch.
Tested also lan isolators and YES those bring quite significant SQ boost.

 

[Kris]

Yes I feel that I have gaind some performance in adding beter PSU, cables and etherREGEN but I would not call it major differences but still the cost is rather low so why not

As I use Roon and Qobuz when I start a song it is downloaded to the harddrive on my NUC so after a few seconds there are not much activity on the router as music flows from NUC via etherREGEN to my dCS. I can disconnect my fiber from router to etherREGEN during a song is played from Qobuz and it will still play that whole song.



I dont have multiple routers. The first component is just a fiber to WAN converter (it has dual fiber in, one for internet and one for tv so they are seperated from ISP) and this WAN port goes to my router a Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP that supplies my local LAN network with DHCP.

I have tried to seperate them so I have one larger 24p switch that supplies the house and Wifi accespoint. Then I have the etherREGEN supplied via fiber from router as a audio only system.

I had 2 routers before for some time.
make sure you have ONE router . Wired router NOT wireless router. Add SEPARATE wifi accdes point .
if you have 2 routers than all packets go via 2 processors OF 2 routers and are REDIRECTED .
if you have one router it goes via one processor so much less noise and much better sound.
by loging nto my second router and turning off DHCP server ( that is a routing thing)
I got feree of charge very significant boost in SQ.
I USED EDGEROUTER X as many here.

 

[Kris]

Here’s an easy and rewarding diy project. Inspired by the Kanai Maru link below (open in Chrome for translation from Japanese), I used Takman metal film resistors in a Telegaertner rj45 plug. You just plug into one of the spare ports of your router and enjoy a nice drop in noisefloor. I found that using two deadened the sound quality.

http://kanaimaru.com/NWA840/005.htm

http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_terminator.html

View attachment 64004

You can do the same FREE of charge.
just log into you switch or router and turn OFF ports you are not using!
Edgerouter is so easy to do that .

your wellcome ...
Kris

 

[Kingsrule]

U can turn off indivudual LAN ports on the Edgerouter?

Never heard of that feature on any router/switch....