Network Improvements and their Impact on Sound Quality

[Kris]

FYI, the TPLink RE650 is a dual band (2.4GHz & 5GHz bands) access point/extender that comes standard with a mains wall plug, internal 5V DC supply, 4 antennae, ability to deactivate all LEDs, and SW control via the TPLInk app Tether. As standard, the unit is plugged into a wall socket and the (cheap as chips) internal SMPS produces the 5V necessary to run the unit. Prior to deciding on using the unit as part of my network I compared its W-Fi performance to standard CAT5 and Synergistic Research Active SE Cat6 10m ethernet cables. The Wi-fi was superior. Initially I built my network based on the ISP supplied modem/router sending a wi-fi signal to the RE650 which was connected to my then Innuos Zenith SE server by a 1m SR Atmosphere X Ref ethernet cable. Further development of the network included placing network devices on Atacama platforms to minimize vibration and powering devices with Sean Jacob’s DC3s. Eventually the RE 650 was the only device still powered by its own internal SMPS.
Using the standard Tether SW, I could switch off the 2.4MHz band, switch off the 5MHz band polling, switch off the LEDs and make the hardwired Innuos the only client.
Given the success I’d had with LPSs and vibration control I decided to modify the RE650 to bring it into line. I removed the internal power supply and the wall plug and used the space to install a single mounting point. I then built an anti-vibration wall mount, using Polymethyl methacrylate, (Perspex). I glued a single button mount to the Perspex to hold the RE650 and attached nitrile o-rings to each corner. 4 cup hooks in the wall hold the o-rings which are under minimal tension and therefore transmit no vibration from the wall, while the antennae are held in the same orientation as the wall plug mount. Sean Jacobs built a connector from the RE650’s circuit board power input to a chassis mounted socket, so I can now attach any DC cable using a standard 2.1mm barrel connector. An SJ DC3 provides the required 5V and the current is carried to the RE650 over a Nenon designed Mundorf Silver/Gold JSSG DC cable. The DC3 sits on a small Atacama platform.
On the router side, I installed a 3 band TPLink Archer 5400 which I can also control via the Tether App. One of its 5GHz bands is dedicated to audio, with the RE650 as the only client. The Router is also powered by a DC3 with Mundorf Silver/Gold DC cable.
Photos show DC3s for AQVoxSE switch and RE650 access point on an Atacama mini rack; the RE650 on its anti-vibration mount, a top view of RE650 showing its single mounting pint and Nenon’s Mundorf SilverGold DC cable demonstrating its ability to hold a shape, allowing stress free mounting

Could you please be so kind to let us know how the vibro-isolating anthenna infuenced the SQ in your system?
did you repeat the same for other things like router, supply or anything else ?

 

[Kris]

if i get this right, your fios quantum router feeds 1) your edge router and 2) all the rest of your stuff on two separate lan cables.

did you have to disable DHCP on your edge router (so that the two routers don't fight over who assigns IP addresses), or are you setting up a subnet or something like that with the edge router?

yes DHCP should be off in one or the other router so they dont fight and they do not reroute everything twice via the processor.

 

[Kris]

With this big SQ delta you reported the Edgerouter used as switch might be superior to a typical switch?

Matt

Sure it is in my case. Much better .
tried many. This is the one .

 

[drjimwillie]

Sure it is in my case. Much better .
tried many. This is the one .

Is the edge router the first router or the second router?
How are you programming them to work together, please?

 

[Kris]

I have the JCAT right now attached to the output of the Edge then into the Extreme. I know I should try that, BUT right now I don't want to touch it, it's stable and sound incredible I know it would not be a big deal. Maybe in a week or two when I'm over the amazement.

Some say chaining Melco with Ether Regen or with Jcat M12 gold might be a great idea .
please try to chain them .
you should be amazed again

 

[Kris]

i feel your pain and sympathize...............don't *&$# with it

a few years ago, i had reached what felt like the nirvana being described by extreme users, then i made changes and screwed it up.
at the time, i think i said something like "if this gets any better, my head will explode"

i had a personal nirvana with hqplayer embedded streaming to an ultraRendu (battery powered) to an sotm usb->aes/ebu recclocker (battery powered) to a totaldac d1-dual........the detail and delicacy was amazing..........but then i screwed with it and have been trying to get back to that point.

even though i've upgraded many parts of my system, somehow i had stumbled on a low jitter/low noise sweet spot and somehow lost

believe me, if i get back to that i will never make another change that is not completely reversible..........clearly things were happening that i was not cognizant of and could not be understood at the time (or even now........we still don't know exactly what the hell is going on here, do we?)

I did the same few times .
it costs a fortune and it takes months or years but „falling down.” gives you a chance to go much higher then you were before.

 

[Kris]

U can turn off indivudual LAN ports on the Edgerouter?

Never heard of that feature on any router/switch....

Sure you can. This switch is small but very advanced .
it was build for small business and offices so requires quite advanced options.

 

[Kris]

Is the edge router the first router or the second router?
How are you programming them to work together, please?

Your network provider always gives you a little box / terminal .
This contains also router in almost all cases. And wifi sometimes .
you cannot log into it and turn off routing .
I wisch I could do that to transfer all routing from this box to my edgerouter.

if you add Ubiq edgerouter x you set is as a SWITCH to avoid issues .
edgerouter has very good processor and other components including advanced menue .
you can log into it and turn off DHCP server , disconnect LAN ports and few hundred of things
if ( as Marcin already mentioned) you know what you are doing.
You can even offload some work from edgerouter to the connected devices so your processor works less and switch is much much quicker .

 

[Blackmorec]

Could you please be so kind to let us know how the vibro-isolating anthenna infuenced the SQ in your system?
did you repeat the same for other things like router, supply or anything else ?

Sure.....cutting out vibration seems to enhance the purity, acoustic ‘space‘ and layering....such that depth perception becomes much finer and more resolved. This helps separate tonally closely related instruments for greater perceived clarity. In total the sound becomes more holographic, however the effect is quite subtle compared to for instance adding Nenon’s Mundorf Silver/Gold DC cables...vibration control adds subtle but worthwhile detail and an increased level of comprehensibility to the sound. It’d be difficult to evaluate the vibrio-isolated antennae because I added the ~DC3 LPS at the same time so i got quite a clear increase in SQ that was probably due mainly to the LPS. The improvements I noted above came from placing Atacama bases and racks under modem, router and network power supplies. By swapping out the internal PS in the RE650 and replacing the wall socket with isolation one avoids vibration and noise from the 230V AC to 5V DC conversion as well as physical vibration coming via the wall.

 

[drjimwillie]

I remember that the initial suggestion from Mr. Romaz is to have a separate network.
Does putting the edge router as a switch, after your router accomplish that?
Is this as close as you can get to that goal, if you have to use your providers router?
Thank you

 

[Johnny Moondog]

Hello Everyone,

“Long term lurker, first time poster.”

I have plans to purchase the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, but that’s a couple of steps down the path. The current focus is to re-configure my network with the M12 SWITCH GOLD, but have a couple of questions.

Current Network

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> eero Pro Router WiFi

eero Pro Router WiFi —> SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch

SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> Apple TV

M12 SWITCH GOLD

I will replace the SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch with the M12 GOLD.

It’s my understanding that the two M12 LAN cables would be used for connecting the Modem and the Music Server.

But how to maintain the eero Pro Router for WiFi, the Synology NAS for archiving the Music Server library, and the Apple TV connection?

And is there a What’s Best practice for isolating the potential noise of those three from the primary goal of Hi-Fi Nirvana?

In the future, if I wanted to play music files from the NAS, that would require a third M12 LAN cable. And perhaps the Apple TV would also benefit from being connected to the M12 GOLD. But that is not my current focus.

I just started reading through this topic, and noticed the mention of using an additional router. Is this how to achieve the above isolation?

Here’s my Network Novice attempt at mapping it out:

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> EdgeRouter X SFP

EdgeRouter X SFP
LAN —> eero Pro Router WiFi
LAN —> Apple TV
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> M12 SWITCH GOLD

M12 SWITCH GOLD
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback!

 

[Johnny Moondog]

I'm planning to wirte a short guide how I built and optimized my simple network for audio. I will share a link when it's ready. I'm pretty sure it covers tips I haven't seen discussed anywhere and the impact on SQ is significant.

Marcin — I very much look forward to reading this!

 

[Kris]

Hello Everyone,

“Long term lurker, first time poster.”

I have plans to purchase the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, but that’s a couple of steps down the path. The current focus is to re-configure my network with the M12 SWITCH GOLD, but have a couple of questions.

Current Network

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> eero Pro Router WiFi

eero Pro Router WiFi —> SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch

SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> Apple TV

M12 SWITCH GOLD

I will replace the SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch with the M12 GOLD.

It’s my understanding that the two M12 LAN cables would be used for connecting the Modem and the Music Server.

But how to maintain the eero Pro Router for WiFi, the Synology NAS for archiving the Music Server library, and the Apple TV connection?

And is there a What’s Best practice for isolating the potential noise of those three from the primary goal of Hi-Fi Nirvana?

In the future, if I wanted to play music files from the NAS, that would require a third M12 LAN cable. And perhaps the Apple TV would also benefit from being connected to the M12 GOLD. But that is not my current focus.

I just started reading through this topic, and noticed the mention of using an additional router. Is this how to achieve the above isolation?

Here’s my Network Novice attempt at mapping it out:

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> EdgeRouter X SFP

EdgeRouter X SFP
LAN —> eero Pro Router WiFi
LAN —> Apple TV
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> M12 SWITCH GOLD

M12 SWITCH GOLD
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback!

if you already own sotm consider keeping it to attach everything else to it .
than you can go with one ethernet from sotm to M12 gold.
this way you will have all connected.
many chain the switches so you might benefit of running audio stream :
modem - edgerouter - sotm- Jcat m12 gold - server

also it is very important to add fibre somwere For galvanic isolation
if you already have sotm you can use fibre ftom its sfp socket and add one media converter soch us
sonore OM, EtherRegen , Startech MC or any outher of your choice.
just experiment with what you already have .
take your time
you should see what is best for you .

 

[LeBlanc]

if you already own sotm consider keeping it to attach everything else to it .
than you can go with one ethernet from sotm to M12 gold.
this way you will have all connected.
many chain the switches so you might benefit of running audio stream :
modem - edgerouter - sotm- Jcat m12 gold - server

also it is very important to add fibre somwere For galvanic isolation
if you already have sotm you can use fibre ftom its sfp socket and add one media converter soch us
sonore OM, EtherRegen , Startech MC or any outher of your choice.
just experiment with what you already have .
take your time
you should see what is best for you .

As the Edgerouter also has a fiber output, adding an FMC seems unnecessary. In the suggested lay out you could put fiber between Edgerouter and SOtM.

 

[matthias]

Hello Everyone,

“Long term lurker, first time poster.”

I have plans to purchase the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme, but that’s a couple of steps down the path. The current focus is to re-configure my network with the M12 SWITCH GOLD, but have a couple of questions.

Current Network

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> eero Pro Router WiFi

eero Pro Router WiFi —> SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch

SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> Apple TV

M12 SWITCH GOLD

I will replace the SOtM sNH-10G Network Switch with the M12 GOLD.

It’s my understanding that the two M12 LAN cables would be used for connecting the Modem and the Music Server.

But how to maintain the eero Pro Router for WiFi, the Synology NAS for archiving the Music Server library, and the Apple TV connection?

And is there a What’s Best practice for isolating the potential noise of those three from the primary goal of Hi-Fi Nirvana?

In the future, if I wanted to play music files from the NAS, that would require a third M12 LAN cable. And perhaps the Apple TV would also benefit from being connected to the M12 GOLD. But that is not my current focus.

I just started reading through this topic, and noticed the mention of using an additional router. Is this how to achieve the above isolation?

Here’s my Network Novice attempt at mapping it out:

ARRIS SB8200 Modem —> EdgeRouter X SFP

EdgeRouter X SFP
LAN —> eero Pro Router WiFi
LAN —> Apple TV
LAN —> Synology NAS
LAN —> M12 SWITCH GOLD

M12 SWITCH GOLD
LAN —> Innuos Zenith SE Music Server

Thanks in advance for any and all feedback!

If you are aiming for the Extreme I would sell the SOtM, buy an EtherRegen and try the configuration @romaz found best mentioned in this post:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-170#post-642022

Matt

 

[gds7368]

My configuration is:
Modem-Router (supplied by the ISP) to which fiber optics (600 Mb) / Ethernet Cable to the EtherREGEN Switch / Ethernet Cable to the Melco Server.

EtherREGEN has LPS and is connected to Shunyata Denali
Modem-Router has LPS and is connected to a dirty line in the kitchen.

CHANGE:
I brought the Modem-Router to the living room (longer fiber cable) and connected its LPS to Shunyata Denali.

OUTCOME:
The largest increase in SQ in the last twelve months.

Note. And no, it's not a different flavor, when I hear more detail coupled with an astonishing decrease in digital stress on the trebels.

All of this is interesting and appreciated! I am about to wire up my system, previously in the basement, to the great room. I’ve run 50+ of cat6 cable (through the closed basement ceiling) and just realized the electricians didn’t terminate it (as I’ve learned they don’t usually do). So now my computer company is going to schedule a time to come out and terminate the cat6. And it’s decision time how to wire everything on the modem/router side. The electricians declined running fiber, saying they were worried it’s fragile. So without spending more $ I won’t have that data point. Would be great for someone who has already started down their optimization road to compare to Steve’s Orbi recommendation ($200). Even if it wasn’t preferred, comments about wireless vs wired sound would be very helpful.

 

[Kris]

As the Edgerouter also has a fiber output, adding an FMC seems unnecessary. In the suggested lay out you could put fiber between Edgerouter and SOtM.

Sure if it has sfp .
but regular edgerouter x has no fibre option
the edgerouter X SFP has it.
So it depands wich version he has.

 

[LeBlanc]

Sure if it has sfp .
but regular edgerouter x has no fibre option
the edgerouter X SFP has it.
So it depands wich version he has.

@Johnny Moondog mentioned he has the SFP version, see post #91.

 

[matthias]

Would be great for someone who has already started down their optimization road to compare to Steve’s Orbi recommendation ($200).Even if it wasn’t preferred, comments about wireless vs wired sound would be very helpful.

+1
AFAIK, Emile @Taiko Audio is looking into WiFi and will certainly come up in due time with some recommendations.
I am very curious about his impressions.

Matt

 

[drjimwillie]

I remember that the initial suggestion from Mr. Romaz is to have a separate network.
Does putting the edge router as a switch, after your router accomplish that?
Is this as close as you can get to that goal, if you have to use your providers router?
Thank you

If the edge router after the Verizon router is not giving me a separate network, what is it doing differently then the Sonore optical module would do?
Does anyone have experience or a guess on which one would be better the edge router or the 0M?