New convert to CH Precision - advice needed

[LL21]

Hi Lloyd,

Since my Arrakis are true bi-amped speakers (with the Rockport external crossover), I run my 2 CH M1 amps in active bi amped mode. This allows me to use 1 M1 per speaker instead of 2 Siegfried’s per speaker. In active bi-amped, each M1 has 2 separate and independent adjustable global feedback and gain controls for each speaker. For the bass drivers of the Arrakis I use 60% global feedback and for the mid bass, mids and highs I use 0% global feedback. I did experiment with different feedback settings for the bass drivers and found that 60% gave me everything I wanted - especially incredible overall speaker control. Another advantage of using the M1’s is that with the Siegfried II’s, as you increase the global feedback (its has 4 settings for this) the gain of the amplifier is lowered (this is not the case with the M1’s). So in order to properly bi-amp each speaker I had to use the gain controls of the external Rockport crossover to keep the 2 Siegfrieds per channel in proper balance. With the M1’s this isn’t necessary and so the crossover is set to them “0” setting and just acts as more a signal pass through.

Wow and more wow. That is really fascinating and another great post to keep in the files for future reference. Thanks, Arnie. I really enjoyed reading about you and your system in The Audio Beat the other month. Truly great of you to share that with everyone...a lot to admire and learn.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wow and more wow. That is really fascinating and another great post to keep in the files for future reference. Thanks, Arnie. I really enjoyed reading about you and your system in The Audio Beat the other month. Truly great of you to share that with everyone...a lot to admire and learn.

+1 on each point

 

[LL21]

Like many people here I truly am trying to understand the number of tube lovers who have switched to CH. One person switched to CH from Viva Aurora. Jack switched to CH from Lamm. These are serious former tube people, among several others.

As someone who has Rockport Arrakis (which I love) and (formerly) Siegfried IIs (which I love) I (and maybe LL21) am (are) finding your switch to CH be the unkindest cut — ah, the most interesting switch — of all. (Further a good friend of mine in California uses two pairs of Siegfrieds to drive his Arrakis.)

Of course we all are well aware that Andy Payor switched from Siegfried IIs to Gryphon.

I am going to be happy with the Siegfrieds.

I have to admit...despite being an enormous fan of Andy Payor's work and set on the Arrakis someday...i admit i did not know that Andy moved from Siegfried IIs to Gryphon. When was this? (I did recall the CJ Premier 12s in the background of a few photos on his old website...but even then, you saw lots of photos of the Gryphon Antileon.)

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am going to be happy with the Siegfrieds.

And I am sure you will be very happy with them.

This "liquidity" - I prefer "fluidity" - should not be debated in the SS versus tube entourage. It is not only a characteristic of the amplifier, but also brought by the preamplifier or source - I remember that old Electrocompaniet power amplifiers would sound "liquid" when coupled to old ARC SP8 or SP10, but sounded "doughy" with other preamplfiers, including their own.

Although you are, in some aspects, a cable skeptic, IMHO you will find with time and experience that the proper cables will greatly increase these "liquidity" aspects of the VTL.

Considering La Donna et mobile (and I am not addressing the opera, but the audiophiles) , if interested this week I could have bought at short traveling distance used M1 or used Siegfried's at nice prices!

 

[shakti]

@wisnon
@Gian60

Thank you for inviting me! I have to consider, when I am again in this areas.
Just by chance, I was 3 weeks ago for a week in Bergamo, visiting from their the companies "Aqua" and "Grandinote" and off cause visiting in Milano the "La Scala"!

I should have known before, that in that area is so much more to listen to,

next time!

 

[JackD201]

Like many people here I truly am trying to understand the number of tube lovers who have switched to CH. One person switched to CH from Viva Aurora. Jack switched to CH from Lamm. And Arnie! These are serious former tube people, among several others.

As someone who has Rockport Arrakis (which I love) and (formerly) Siegfried IIs (which I love) I (and maybe LL21) am (are) finding Arnie’s switch to CH to be the unkindest cut — ah, the most interesting switch — of all. (Further a good friend of mine in California uses two pairs of Siegfrieds to drive his Arrakis.)

Of course we all are well aware that Andy Payor switched from Siegfried IIs to Gryphon.

I am going to be happy with the Siegfrieds.

I believe you will be happy with the Siggy IIs Ron. If you want to roll, start with the 12AT7 <wink> The high power tube amp list is a short one and these are easily in the top 3 IMO with the Big CATs and the Big VACs. My fave tube combos with the Siggy 2s is a tele 12at7 and RCA 12bh7s. Also to be fair I switched from "only" Lamm Reference Hybrids and not the Signature line

A note on the CH gear: Just like any other set of components, burn in is required. I felt the dryness too in the beginning. That disappears after about 200 hours of play. That they are impressive out of the box is the reason many of us forgot that the best was yet to come.

Given how quick and simple the CH amps are at reacting (pun intended) to complex loads, I feel very sure they would do just as well on planars.

 

[Derekw14]

Thanks Elliot!

 

[Derekw14]

Super helpful, thank you Ralph!! Phew, my configuration was as you said ... feeling proud, as these are quite technical.
Seems like the X1 is the unanimous recommendation! Followed perhaps by the network card, and a very good BNC cable between the C1 and D1.
Btw, CH votes thumbs up for two A1s.
I am also told by a knowledgeable audiophile that for USB the Prana cable is the cat's meow.
And by a bona fide reviewer that platforms and footers make an enormous difference with CH, he dislikes the factory metals rods and receivers allowing to stack the components, which is too bad as this practical and comes at not extra cost ;-( Thanks again!

 

[Derekw14]

Thank you Jambo, this is a much cheaper route indeed! I had experimented with high quality fuses with my previous Dartzeel and indeed they made a difference, so I know this is real. Never tried the SR ones though, sounds like you like them!

 

[Derekw14]

Perfectly worded Mike. I used the word dryness with a sense of it being inappropriate. Different degrees of liquidity is the right description as you say. You understand perfectly what I was trying to express. I also agree that tubes - even the mighty 450 Statement iQ that I had before the CH ... tend to superimpose their own version of the sound, sometimes producing a certain sameness in your excellent words, albeit often pleasing. As to Dartzeel, as I said earlier, I remain a huge fan and loved loved loved my 108, but simply couldn't afford to switch to the 458. Now of course Herve has come up with a 108 v2... Hummm.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.

 

[Derekw14]

Let me express my appreciation and gratitude for all the thoughtful, friendly and helpful responses I have received.
You guys are great and it feels really wonderful to exchange and learn from so many knowledgeable, courteous and diversely minded music lovers and gear connoisseurs.

 

[heihei]

I'm not too surprised about tube lovers liking CH kit. The L1 in particular imparts a great fluidity / liquidity to the music which is very enticing. In fact my first thought was that it sounded quite tube-like from that perspective.

 

[arnies]

Hi Ron,

Thanks.

I would agree with Jack in that you will really enjoy the SIegfried Series 2. They are great amps and with the ability to adjust the global feedback is a further benefit. I would also agree that you should change the stock 12AT7 input tubes and then the 12bh7 driver tubes. I spent a lot of time doing this and was able to further improve the sound. It is getting harder and harder to find good quality matched quads of NOS 12BH7 tubes these days but it is worth doing this.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Jack and Arnie for the encouraging wishes and the very kind tube advice!

It is quite possible that I am ten years slow on the sonic uptick, and that I will follow in your amplifier footsteps in the future!

 

[Derekw14]

A quick update: is it still burn in (if yes, boy does it take a while!!!) or just my ears? I thought the CH had started to sound almost a little too robust, and with such crazy dynamics that forte or accelerations sometimes verged on sounding unnatural, and certain tones less well integrated in the mix.
I switched the two A1 from bridge to monaural (that had sounded a little thin/ethereal to me earlier in the discovery, yet that CH recommended), and sure enough I got as much if not more space than in bridge mode, and a significantly more natural, open and even handed, "free" musical presentation. Timbres can still be on certain recordings as a little less developed or "saturated" than I am used to with tubes, but the same remarkable qualities of openness, "live" presentation, finesse and startling (if now more natural) dynamics are there in abundance, and even seemingly enhanced vs. the bridge mode.
These electronics really take a while to accustom to. I have yet to start experimenting with FB, let alone consider the various upgrades most recommended (footers and damping plates, X1, perhaps fuses).

 

[JackD201]

They do take a while but worry not, not as long as teflon caps

 

[wisnon]

Let me express my appreciation and gratitude for all the thoughtful, friendly and helpful responses I have received.
You guys are great and it feels really wonderful to exchange and learn from so many knowledgeable, courteous and diversely minded music lovers and gear connoisseurs.

The M1 will have much more headroom and wont be inclined to clip at higher volume. Not sure if the A1 has user selectable local and global feedback to match with your speaker selection. Of course it's bigger and more expensive on the "downside".

The "tube-like" character I think comes from that temperature sensor that is the director of the auto-biasing that happens as operating temp changes from initial switch-on to deep into a listening session. I have some notes somewhere from what Florian told me years badck....

 

[Elliot G.]

Yet another high end and discerning Tube-driven audiophile converted to this SS amp...and specifically noting how it did not give up anything on liquidity, transparency...'done with tubes' seems to be the universal conclusion from this converted set of audiophiles...quite a remarkable achievement!

To be very upfront I was looking for a good compromise when switching out of the ARC and other tube gear I have been in love with for over 30 years. My expectations at Priaptor's were truly limited in finding a good amp to drive the Aeon Reference and Fine speakers that i was importing. I did not expect to hear what we did and I believe the Priaptor would agree with that statement. We lost nothing! We gained so much in dynamics, sound stage, control, speed , extension and to my hearing better overall musicality because of the total transparency across the whole bandwidth not just the midrange of the tube amplifiers. Music is not just midrange and I felt the system really bloomed and came alive with the M-1. Top to bottom with the same level of speed and transparency this was not there with the tubes. The speakers really had a sense of ease and the amp sounds like it will never strain or run out of power.
Howie and I were both thrilled and surprised. I don't think he ever thought he was going to buy it and I after the experience decided to become a dealer which I was not ever thinking about. I just need an amp for my speakers.
Another member here that owned REF 750SE had the same experience and traded them to me for M-1's.
For the record I have owned personally almost everything ARC has ever made that was worth owning. I had CJ gear, Jadis Gear and a few VTL products. I liked them all but I love my CH!
For me there are no bad days, no explosions, no paranoia and no disappointment. My speaker designer uses it and our cables and speakers were designed using it.

I use it by choice and I am proud to be associated with it. IMHO it is a amazing product

 

[gian60]

With A1 you can select feedback and gain like M1

Amp is exactly same,M1 has big trans and 1 or 2 transistor more and 200 watt ( 8 ohm) instead 100 att of A1

Other things are exactly same

 

[marty]

... the CHP timbres sound a touch (and by this i mean slightly) dry, a little less suave and ‘fruity’, notably on acoustic instruments...
...If you had only one upgrade to make, which one would it be and why? )

What a fun thread! It is however, a conversation that as Mike said, has been covered previously many times and in many ways . But Stephe, your question has never been answered to anyone's satisfaction (as far as I can tell)! You are asking for the sonic holy grail which remains elusive for most of us. I know that many of us would answer your last question in one word "tubes"! I'm reminded of the great line by Dave Wilson who famously said "you need a tube in there somewhere!". Dave's preferred system in its last iteration comprised a VTL 7.5 II preamp and a D'Agostino Amps (which he alternated with VTL Siegfrieds at times). My sense is that he was looking for exactly what you are seeking because he was not satisfied completely with either a full SS or tube based system. I'm sympathetic to that view and several years ago moved from an all-tube based system (w Siegfrieds) to a hybrid system. I have long deeply coveted the M1 amps but budget constraints have intervened. I therefore use Soulution 511 monoblocs with a VTL 7.5 III preamp and find that they satisfy a "best of both sonic worlds" about as much as I can hope for presently. I wish you every success in uncovering the magic elixir using all CH Precision components. I'll certainly look forward to learning the results of your quest.