New Tube Tape Preamp out soon-

[tony ky ma]

Hi Tony
I respectfully disagree about MM Phono gain having enough juice for a typical low impedance head(ReVox, Technics, etc..). Most MM phono stages are around 43 db of gain. I have found this a bit low for these types of heads and MC gain of 60 db is a bit much. 50 to 55 db of gain seems to be the sweet spot for these heads IMO.

Rich Brown

Hi Rich
A step up transformer to match is a easy way to do, in a custom make of a step up also can match the impedance of the head which is going to be use,with a high quality step up transformer will sound better than only by high gain amp that is my experience in MC phono stage
tony ma

 

[flez007]

I am actually running a Studer BR20'with a Denon MC step- up and then to a Bottlehead Seduction head preamp, not as great as my friend's ATR/Bottlehead TOTL preamp but very convincing.

 

[tony ky ma]

I am actually running a Studer BR20'with a Denon MC step- up and then to a Bottlehead Seduction head preamp, not as great as my friend's ATR/Bottlehead TOTL preamp but very convincing.

Bottlehead's TOTLvs Sedution qiute different in quality ( price also quite different too), Denon MC step up is 3 ohm and 100 ohm switched both is too low for a repro head, you can check the value of the in put resistor in the repro amp inside the recorder and custom make a step up gain of 10 times with that value of impedance for in put (Electric Print Audio in Lasvegas will make for you)
tony ma

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Rich,

Could you address this question please.

Concerning RtoR, I have seen a reference (that I can no longer find) that showed that basiclly, at below about 100Hz and above 5KHz the distortion (THD) raises to atleast 3% and more, with about 0.5% at 1KHz.

This assumes bias set for min THD at 1Khz at 0VU I believe. I know there are many variables, but people are always talking about frequency response and not distortion. Any comments would be appreciated, even if only ball park. I saw the gear in your video and thought, ah ha, there is the person who can enlighten me.

Thanks,


Tom

Revox B77

http://www.reeltoreel.de/worldwide/B77.htm

Here's a more modern prosumer machine, the Otari 5050.

http://www.otari.com/download/files/mx5050_ad_e1.pdf

There's obviously a lot of variables involved here not the least of which is the quality of the tape and electroncs, EQ curve, heads and width, etc. I sure that Tim deP machine or tricked out pro machines look worlds better than this too!

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks for the links Myles.

Of course, the THD figures are only for 1KHz!

Funny how that was the one and only distortion test for reel to reel that the manufacturers published....huummm, just at 1Khz......

In my old service manual for an AKAI R2R I have a smiley face drawn, and a note that shows 3% at 100hz and 0.5% at 1KHz 0VU and 3% at 5Khz and then the smiley extends upwards both directions.

It seems 30 years ago I might have done this THD test myself but am not sure. Not that distortion nor linear frequency response are the tell all of what ones preference is for audio reproduction.

Hopefully one of the R2R gurus here can post the real story on bandwidth THD for these decks. We shall see. In any case, it might rattle some folks belief systems.

Cheers,

Tom

First of all, the Akai is hardly a decent prosumer machine, much less a pro machine. Two, the figures quoted are probably also for 71/2 ips at the best. Things do change at 15 and 30 ips dramatically, esp in the upper regions with 30 ips, one of the big reasons for eating up miles of tape. Third, listen to a master tape and you tell me what you hear. Months ago Albert Porter put specs up for two amplifiers that were identical. One turned out to be a car amplifier and the other a high-end amplifier. Same specs, which one are you going to have in your system. Measurements past a certain point are meaningless. Fourth, I've given you a list of many items that can affect the figures you're quoting. Do you think KOJ's, John Curls', Jim Boyk's, etc. modded machines show these numbers. Hardly. There are very few recording engineers that I've spoken to that use a stock machine much less an akai.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/351.htm

 

[mep]

Hopefully one of the R2R gurus here can post the real story on bandwidth THD for these decks. We shall see. In any case, it might rattle some folks belief systems.Cheers,
Tom

Tom-Whose belief system do you think might possibly be rattled? I dare say no one on this forum who has bought a prosumer or professional R2R and is playing 15 ips 2 track tapes is suddenly going to think the great sound they are hearing can't be good because someone came up with a graph that told them they can't be hearing what they think they are hearing. That would be like taking a reverse dose of snake oil. And if anyone hear does drink the reverse snake oil potion and decides they were charmed like the snake in the garden of Eden and now they must sell their bad R2R, please PM with the make and model number of your deck. I always have room for one more.

 

[flez007]

Bottlehead's TOTLvs Sedution qiute different in quality ( price also quite different too), Denon MC step up is 3 ohm and 100 ohm switched both is too low for a repro head, you can check the value of the in put resistor in the repro amp inside the recorder and custom make a step up gain of 10 times with that value of impedance for in put (Electric Print Audio in Lasvegas will make for you)
tony ma

Tony - Does it help to install an active preamp between the Tascam and the amp overriding the step-up in the meantime I get a better head for the Tascam or change it to an Otari/Technics?

Thanks for your input...

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony - Does it help to install an active preamp between the Tascam and the amp overriding the step-up in the meantime I get a better head for the Tascam or change it to an Otari/Technics?

Thanks for your input...

I always believe a good quality pre amp (active) is needed for a Hi End system, steps volum + DHT tube + line out put transformer is the best combination, you don't need too much gain for it, for DHT 26,46,or300B is the good choice, OT trans depend on the tube you pick, higher current has better sound quality, 600 ohm in sec is good enough for most power amp's connection, I have no idea for the sound of different transport, but sure they will different, still believe head + step up + repro amp +line pre amp will have the bigger change.
cheers tony ma

 

[flez007]

Tony - I already have an active preamp in the chain (actually I have an Integrated amp with and active preamp as part of its design), but I was curious to learn if another preamp prior my Solista could increase gain of the Seduction and by that avoid the use of the step-up transformer.
At any rate, this is temporary setup since I will go to a larger BH model with an additional 10 dB of gain and the modified Otari7Technics with proper head with the right gain to avoid the step-up.

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony - I already have an active preamp in the chain (actually I have an Integrated amp with and active preamp as part of its design), but I was curious to learn if another preamp prior my Solista could increase gain of the Seduction and by that avoid the use of the step-up transformer.
At any rate, this is temporary setup since I will go to a larger BH model with an additional 10 dB of gain and the modified Otari7Technics with proper head with the right gain to avoid the step-up.

I always say that pre-power separated system is better than the integrated because they have separated power supply for each , gain adjust is not only on the front end, from cart or tape head to the sensitive of the amps and efficiency of speakers any change can match the result, you can try what you going to have first, if you find not enough then add the step up transformer to match what you desire, up grade the volume control in the pre amp is a good investment, cost not too much but a big return , you can find many choice from the internet of steps control in the Hi End parts world
tony ma

 

[MylesBAstor]

Mark, you can't have my r2r! It looks cool with the meters bouncing and the reels spinning around. It has a sound, and sometimes I want to hear its sound. When my friends and I recorded to my or other decks, and there were some prosumer decks, from an lp, NEVER did it sound like the lp. Always a layer of saturation, of thickening of the sound. No big deal, no one expected it to be pristine. All of us could hear the benefit to the highs and lows by running at 7.5 vs 3.75 ips, and of course running at 15ips (NOT 30ips...never heard it) you got even better lows but still the "thickness and richness" was still there.

If your belief system is you want highest fidelity to the recorded signal, you won't find it with an analog tape deck. If your belief system is that music can not sound good unless all distortions are down below say 0.1%, you might be suprised what r2r does.

Just things like that.

Tom

Sorry but you are SO wrong. And that flies in the face of probably 90% or more of our recorded music coming from analog tape. Oh and bet you were first on line to buy the first crap off the Japanese assembly line touting 0.0000000000001 % THD. Funny thing is that the Japanese send their crap over here and import US high end audio when they want quality.

Why don't you judge analog and LPs using the worst piece of crap 'table? Akai? No tapehead in their right mind would even consider this brand, even for a microsecond. It was crap when released and nothing has changed.

And BTW, the electronics inside most prosumer machines is crap.

 

[MylesBAstor]

We did these tests together in the mid eighties, we used various brands of tape players, including a unit that did 15ips, dont' remember the brand, but that was surely prosumer or pro at the time. And it did not sound like the source. I am not concerend about what "crap" we listen to, but what actual quality is recored on the tape. In the last 20 years, 90+% of the music is not recorded on analog tape machines, but digital tape and hard drive, from best I can infer.

And what were you using to eval the fidelity to the source? And from what you said (?), you used recorded an LP? How can you tell if if it's the tape process or everything else in the path that's changing the sound?

How much of today's music is reissued? Quite a bit. And one would be quite surprised how much is still recorded in analog and transferred to digital or recorded in digital, transferred to analog and then then reconverted

Anyway, I am not attacking your cherished analog tape deck and never did. I want some specs on distortion, as I have repeatedly said.

You're not and I'm not wedded to any media in particular. If digital actually sounded to my ears like real music, I'd use that too. I'll never forget hearing the 1st generation of perfect sound forever digital products and my ears feeling like they were stuffed with cotton for a day after. BTW, several other musicians I knew and listened with had the same comment vis a vis digital recordings.

So, obviously, you are not even concerned about the technical accuracy of these analog tape machines, as you defend them on sound alone. That's not my query, my query is about performance. Accuracy to the start of the recording chain. I don't see how that causes such issues with you. Everything else is personal preference.

To a point. But I don't stare into the laser beam and chant I'm perfect. Every time we "cure" one distortion, we find ten others.

Tape machines ADD to the original sound. That is a fact. Just how much is what I want to know. Go over to the pro audio forums and see what they use tape decks for.

And you are the only one who has had anything to say about all this, and we still are waiting for the tape experts to post........

What doesn't add to or subtract from the signal? Digital doesn't? If the equipment didn't change the signal, we'd be listening to the real music. And the losses begin right at the microphone with some engineers saying we lose 20% of the signal right there. And obviously there are distortions that the ear can listen through (say even order) and those the ear can't (say odd order). Sort of like trans fats here. Something that normally (for the most part) doesn't occur in nature.

Enyoy your music and gear, however, and I will indulge my technical side on this one, I expect I am not the only one curious about this subject.

I might have to ask at other sites about this question of distortion.

Tom[/QUOTE]

 

[mep]

Mark, you can't have my r2r! It looks cool with the meters bouncing and the reels spinning around. It has a sound, and sometimes I want to hear its sound. When my friends and I recorded to my or other decks, and there were some prosumer decks, from an lp, NEVER did it sound like the lp. Always a layer of saturation, of thickening of the sound. No big deal, no one expected it to be pristine. All of us could hear the benefit to the highs and lows by running at 7.5 vs 3.75 ips, and of course running at 15ips (NOT 30ips...never heard it) you got even better lows but still the "thickness and richness" was still there.

If your belief system is you want highest fidelity to the recorded signal, you won't find it with an analog tape deck. If your belief system is that music can not sound good unless all distortions are down below say 0.1%, you might be suprised what r2r does.

Just things like that. Tom

Tom-I’m sure you guys heard what you heard back in the day. I on the other hand don’t find the sound of my LPs when recorded over to 15 ips 2 track tape to be much different than the LP. I certainly don’t have a layer of saturation like you described. Sounds like you guys were overdriving the tape if everything you recorded sounds saturated. That’s not normal. It almost appears that you are conflicted about the sound of tape because of the measurements you haven’t seen yet. You admit it sounds real good and you like it, yet you are ready to dismiss it (sort of) because you don’t think it is linear.

The only reason I like tape is because of how it sounds. Same goes for anything else I listen to which is primarily analog. We are all quite aware that the first CD player that hit the market had reported measurements that were “perfect” and yet even digital die-hards would admit the first generation of CD players sounded absolutely horrid. But how could that be so if they measured perfect? Get my point? I am never going to intentionally seek out something that was designed not to sound good. Anyone who has heard a really good tape deck playing back a well-recorded tape at 15 ips 2 track has commented on how damn good they sound. Even Amir who is a dyed-in-the-wool digit lover has proclaimed how impressed he was by what he heard from tape at CES. Something either sounds great or it doesn’t. I will take a piece of gear that sounds great but measures not as well as another piece of gear that sounds like crap.

 

[tony ky ma]

analog and digital recorded at the same time

This is my experience, we have two out-put jack in our mic pre amp, once we recorded live by a Studer A80 and a Tascam 1000HD at the same time with the same source, so we had tape and CD, after we used that tape as the in put source to the Tascam again for another CD, gave two CDs to a group of friends for reference, guess what is the result ? 100% like the second one more than the direct recorded one !!!
tony ma

 

[MylesBAstor]

And what were you using to eval the fidelity to the source? And from what you said (?), you used recorded an LP? How can you tell if if it's the tape process or everything else in the path that's changing the sound?

Well, simple really. Sent the phono output to the preamp, or sent it to the reel for recording. The thing is, all the reels added texture, richness to the sound of the lp. None of them "took away" much, except a bit of very low and highs, but they all added that texture. As you say below, all things add or subtract. Thats not the question, its about the THD across the band I want to know.

What doesn't add to or subtract from the signal? Digital doesn't? If the equipment didn't change the signal, we'd be listening to the real music. And the losses begin right at the microphone with some engineers saying we lose 20% of the signal right there. And obviously there are distortions that the ear can listen through (say even order) and those the ear can't (say odd order). Sort of like trans fats here. Something that normally (for the most part) doesn't occur in nature.

You realize that the tape contributes almost all third (but not so much the higher odd orders) of course. And just a little second or even, which is more to the electronics and not the tape

Tom.

.

Tom:

So basically you're saying that an X ft run of IC between the units and the stock crappy electronics inside the R2R had no effect upon the sound. They [cables/electronics] were perfectly neutral? Everything was the medium?

BTW, while you're worrying about the distortion levels of the R2R deck, what sort of levels of distortion are you getting from the speaker?

 

[mep]

Tom-I took a quick look at the owner's manual for both my Otari MX-55 and my Ampex ATR-700 decks. The Otari lists 0.3% at 1kHz while the Ampex lists 0.3% at 400 Hz. The Ampex does state that is the maximum distortion so I don't know if they are implying that is the maximum distortion across the entire band or not. As to your question about don't I really want to know what the distortion is I guess my answer without really trying to sound flip is that I don't really care. I trust what I hear more than a piece of paper that tells me how I should feel.

I wonder how many people still have the first CD player they ever bought and just knew they never needed another one because they have a spec sheet that tells them their CD player is perfect? And after all, we all know you can't improve perfection.

 

[flez007]

Tom-I took a quick look at the owner's manual for both my Otari MX-55 and my Ampex ATR-700 decks. The Otari lists 0.3% at 1kHz while the Ampex lists 0.3% at 400 Hz. The Ampex does state that is the maximum distortion so I don't know if they are implying that is the maximum distortion across the entire band or not. As to your question about don't I really want to know what the distortion is I guess my answer without really trying to sound flip is that I don't really care. I trust what I hear more than a piece of paper that tells me how I should feel.

I wonder how many people still have the first CD player they ever bought and just knew they never needed another one because they have a spec sheet that tells them their CD player is perfect? And after all, we all know you can't improve perfection.

I just remember that after receiving my first CDP (a Yamaha unit) playing a Wang Clhung CD, my first reaction was to ask for my money back

 

[jcmusic]

Well in getting back to this threads original title and what not, I purchased one of Kara's Model 222 Tape Pre's. I just got it yesterday I won't be able to listen to it until next week when my speakers return from getting an upgrade!!! Looking forward to hearing this unit vs BH Tube Repro and Seduction!!!

Jay

 

[Ki Choi]

Looking forward to hearing this unit vs BH Tube Repro and Seduction!!!

Jay

Hi Jay: You will have a Tape Head Outboard Preamp depot with the addition of Kara's preamp. You should have kept the King/Cello ;-) to round out the collection. With your high sensitivity horn set up, I am most interested in learning how each preamp's noise level compares first and then their frequency sweep characteristics. Lack of HF and LF adjustments in some of the outboard preamps had been a detractor for me.

 

[jcmusic]

Hi Jay: You will have a Tape Head Outboard Preamp depot with the addition of Kara's preamp. You should have kept the King/Cello ;-) to round out the collection. With your high sensitivity horn set up, I am most interested in learning how each preamp's noise level compares first and then their frequency sweep characteristics. Lack of HF and LF adjustments in some of the outboard preamps had been a detractor for me.

Well Ki I will be sure to let you know after I do some listening to each one in comparison.

Jay