Nordost or Transparent?

[coopersark]

If that's your approach, then that's your approach, but it isn't my approach and it isn't the approach of everyone else. Stereophile does post measurements quite often, and it helps the learning process. I wish they did it more, but at least they are one of the few publications that does this. But unfortunately it's not done with cables.

Learn to trust your ears. They are incredible measuring instruments. They will tell you more than a graph - much more.

 

[RichDavis]

Uhhhh...FR as a predictive factor in the sound went out in the early '60s. Just as flat FR for speaker. Or limited bandwidth. It's documented on the net.

I disagree. Recording studios will spend tons of money to get their studios tuned down to below 20 Hz. At least that's what the big bucks studios do, same thing with concert halls where they have orchestras playing without sound reinforcement systems. They want the room to sound as good as it can. Just about EVERY mfg of any audio product tests their products internally, some publish or will give you test results if you ask, and some won't. But, there are studios that look for flat response monitoring systems as they need that to better help them make a better recording or mastering. Ultimately it boils down to listening, but there are plenty of people that would LOVE to get their hands on response curves and look for flat response systems. When a reviewer says that a piece of equipment is neutral sounding, that is supposed to mean FLAT. I see products reviewed all of the time where then mention neutrality as being a good thing and something to be looking for. I want uncolored sound whenever possible. If I have a good recording of an acoustic instrument, I want it to sound like that instrument is being played right next to me. That's what a neutral sounding system will provide. Accurate sound reproduction. If you don't want accurate sound reproduction, then you shouldn't get involved with high end audio equipment.

 

[RichDavis]

Learn to trust your ears. They are incredible measuring instruments. They will tell you more than a graph - much more.

Most people do not know how to listen to audio, as most people don't have trained ears. I'll bet that most people couldn't tell you how to tell what piano they are listening to. At one point in time, I listened to recordings and could tell it was a certain brand piano. Can you do that? I could tell you if the instrument was a real instrument or a modeled or sampled version of that instrument on a pop recording that is filled with all kinds of compression,etc. I could also tell at some points what other instruments were being played as I heard the real thing up close and personal in the studio and then heard other recordings of the same instrument and could tell it was that instrument. Can you do that? Most people can't. Most people can't tell the difference between a Bosendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha concert grand piano. It takes a lot of time to listen to these pianos live in person and then see if you can tell the subtle differences on a variety of recordings. It takes a lot of time to evaluate cables, and some people simply don't have access or time in the day to evaluate everything. so we go with what we THINK is the best within our budget and then later we find out there might be something better. We aren't born knowing how to listen, that's an ongoing process of constant listening and learning. Can you tell the difference in microphones used in a recording?

 

[microstrip]

I already knew that the response curves of the B&W's were relatively flat. That's what they use in most of the recording studios for classical recordings back in the time frame when I bought them. I went through a phase where I was listening to a fair amount of classical recordings and on the liner notes, they mentioned B&W monitors. Wilson at that time was relatively new, I almost bought them, but I got the B&W's instead and I guess as a courtesy they included the response curves to show that they were closely matched, which was a nice touch, so they showed what I already knew. But, I read various magazine articles and at the time, the reviewers were mentioning how flat of a response they were, but this was many years ago and in the beginning of my getting more involved with the learning process. I would have LOVED it if the cable mfg had response curves, it probably would have helped me greatly in the learning process. I used to read the spec listings when I was a kid reading the buyer's guides of equipment trying to make sense. So, that's when I learned about slew rate, damping, distortion levels, etc. etc. etc. It's all part of the process of learning about this stuff.

What surprises me is that there are a people that seem to not want to see response curves. That floors me. To me, people that are into this stuff should be all over this sort of information. In the crowd that gets involved with studio equipment, they read specs, they like looking at any measurements they can get their hands on. That's what surprises me about your comments. I would think you would want as much information as you could before making a purchase. I don't just walk into a store asking for the most expensive item, whether I can afford it or not. I only buy what I feel comfortable. If I can get good audio and pay less, I'm up for that. I look at the big budget products to get a sense of what it can sound like and try to get the best sound for whatever budget I'm working on and specs and measurements help me in my selection process.

My main question is that unless we are really experts and have access to non standard specifications, our interpretations will be misleading.
For example , in the bad old days, it was considered the right thing to make the speaker’s response extend as far as possible into the bass and measure ruler flat as it did so. If nothing else, it was good for published specifications. Actually, that’s about all it was good for. Nowadays, most designers have more sense and make some allowance for the bass boost that virtually all rooms will provide. Words of the B&W Senior Product Manager, Mike Gough, about some of the tools used by the professional speaker designer including their limitations and pitfallsFrom http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/sound-lab/tools-of-the-trade-the-anechoic-chamber/?hq_e=el&hq_m=1804094&hq_l=11&hq_v=00005f2e5a

Unfortunately most reviewers still outclass speakers just looking at the - 6B point!

 

[MylesBAstor]

I disagree. Recording studios will spend tons of money to get their studios tuned down to below 20 Hz. At least that's what the big bucks studios do, same thing with concert halls where they have orchestras playing without sound reinforcement systems. They want the room to sound as good as it can. Just about EVERY mfg of any audio product tests their products internally, some publish or will give you test results if you ask, and some won't. But, there are studios that look for flat response monitoring systems as they need that to better help them make a better recording or mastering. Ultimately it boils down to listening, but there are plenty of people that would LOVE to get their hands on response curves and look for flat response systems. When a reviewer says that a piece of equipment is neutral sounding, that is supposed to mean FLAT. I see products reviewed all of the time where then mention neutrality as being a good thing and something to be looking for. I want uncolored sound whenever possible. If I have a good recording of an acoustic instrument, I want it to sound like that instrument is being played right next to me. That's what a neutral sounding system will provide. Accurate sound reproduction. If you don't want accurate sound reproduction, then you shouldn't get involved with high end audio equipment.

Really? Obviously you never read Beraneks paper about the great halls of the world.

And BTW, what most studios do has little correlation to what real music sounds like. It's about hearing all the edits and that there's no rumble.

BTW, other than you, show me one audiophile who has put together and chosen their system based on FR, much less any other measurement.

 

[coopersark]

Learn to trust your ears. You use them every day. They are unique instruments to you, just as all of your senses are unique. No two people will agree. No two people hear the same, see the same, smell the same, or taste the same. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream. You listen to human voice and the 90% magic of audio is in the midrange. If one attends concerts of live instruments or are around instruments playing live they know what they sound like. You know it when you hear it.

In audio one is not listening to live music, one is listening to a transcription (recording) of the music. Go with what pleases your ear, as you are the one listening to your system. You can play audio engineer all day but in the end, it audio art and not an exact science. If you know what a particular brand of piano sounds like, then that is great. You are a step in the right direction for your specific needs and tastes. That will greatly help you when evaluating a cable for your specific audio system. Audio never can nor will be exact due to the human factor that I have mentioned above. Everyone hears differently. Additionally equipment reacts differently due to design/impedance differentials.I am a huge believer in a full loom system, and that is another reason why I do use Spectral/MIT. There is a design synergy that is hard to beat! It would not hurt to ask the manufacturer of the electronics that you choose, what cables they used in voicing those electronics. That would also be a great staring point. In the end, trust your ears.
For those that do not have a "trained ear", such as yourself, a relationship with a trusted audio dealer is another place to begin the search.

 

[RichDavis]

My main question is that unless we are really experts and have access to non standard specifications, our interpretations will be misleading. For example , in the bad old days, it was considered the right thing to make the speaker’s response extend as far as possible into the bass and measure ruler flat as it did so. If nothing else, it was good for published specifications. Actually, that’s about all it was good for. Nowadays, most designers have more sense and make some allowance for the bass boost that virtually all rooms will provide. Unfortunately most reviewers still outclass speakers just looking at the - 6B point!

the audio guys that are into accurate sound reproduction or accurate sound recording are into flat response and neutral, but the recording industry has take their fork in the road and computer generated instruments have replace real instruments in the pop recording industry, but there are still those that like to adhere to accurate reproduction without tons of signal processing.

 

[coopersark]

the audio guys that are into accurate sound reproduction or accurate sound recording are into flat response and neutral, but the recording industry has take their fork in the road and computer generated instruments have replace real instruments in the pop recording industry, but there are still those that like to adhere to accurate reproduction without tons of signal processing.

You are making a case for buying a Spectral/MIT system. Spectral's lead engineer is the Grammy award winning Keith O. Johnson, who is a minimalist recording engineer!

 

[Ekmanc]

I could go talk to MIT but I don't give much for their marketing bullshit.

 

[RichDavis]

You are making a case for buying a Spectral/MIT system. Spectral's lead engineer is the Grammy award winning Keith O. Johnson, who is a minimalist recording engineer!

Yeah, and they had MIT custom make them cables they sell for their electronics and they really haven't changed much in their design for many years because they have figured it out. A lot of people like their products, even though they aren't the most widely marketed products, but they are VERY nice and well respected.

 

[mep]

Is it just me or do you feel like we are being lectured to by someone who doesn't even currently own a stereo system?

 

[RichDavis]

I could go talk to MIT but I don't give much for their marketing bullshit.

Have you read their technical white papers and patent filings? That's not marketing BS, they run through the various types of tests that they've performed over the years to figure out why a cable sounds the way they do. Plus, they are consistently the most recognized and recommended from most, if not all of the audio magazine reviewers. They are used in top mastering and recording studios. I've talked to engineers that use their cables in recording studios and they swear by them. They were the first company that pioneered high end cables.

So what brand do you like? Name a company that shows testing procedures, and other aspects and measurements they provide in their technical white papers? I haven't found anyone do as much in the area of showing test measurements to show an objective approach to cable design. Maybe you don't understand their technology.

 

[RichDavis]

Is it just me or do you feel like we are being lectured to by someone who doesn't even currently own a stereo system?

I currently own two systems and have owned plenty of equipment in my life, so what are you talking about?

 

[coopersark]

Yeah, and they had MIT custom make them cables they sell for their electronics and they really haven't changed much in their design for many years because they have figured it out. A lot of people like their products, even though they aren't the most widely marketed products, but they are VERY nice and well respected.

I had to wait a year from order date to delivery date for my main system's Spectral components. They are a low volume manufacturer. I am also currently assembling an office system. It is comprised of a few years old Spectral/MIT. It is a fantastic combo.

 

[mep]

I currently own two systems and have owned plenty of equipment in my life, so what are you talking about?

It's really not clear from your response to Steve what you do or don't have. You talked about wanting to replace your "office" system which I don't equate to a home-based system in a dedicated room and you talked about some type of computer based system which wasn't clear to me if that means something that sits on your desk all contained like another member on this forum has or if it means something else.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Have you read their technical white papers and patent filings? That's not marketing BS, they run through the various types of tests that they've performed over the years to figure out why a cable sounds the way they do. Plus, they are consistently the most recognized and recommended from most, if not all of the audio magazine reviewers. They are used in top mastering and recording studios. I've talked to engineers that use their cables in recording studios and they swear by them. They were the first company that pioneered high end cables.

So what brand do you like? Name a company that shows testing procedures, and other aspects and measurements they provide in their technical white papers? I haven't found anyone do as much in the area of showing test measurements to show an objective approach to cable design. Maybe you don't understand their technology.

How about Caelin Gabriel from Shunyata who's a member of WBF?

 

[ack]

@RichDavis: start a thread, MIT vs Transparent, and there is a lot to be discussed there; I and others have posted about all this - patents and deep analysis on them - many times in the past; it would be good to have one thread for it. Right now, you continue to hijack someone else's thread, who's solely interested in Nordost and Transparent.

 

[microstrip]

Have you read their technical white papers and patent filings? That's not marketing ** , they run through the various types of tests that they've performed over the years to figure out why a cable sounds the way they do. Plus, they are consistently the most recognized and recommended from most, if not all of the audio magazine reviewers. They are used in top mastering and recording studios. I've talked to engineers that use their cables in recording studios and they swear by them. They were the first company that pioneered high end cables.

So what brand do you like? Name a company that shows testing procedures, and other aspects and measurements they provide in their technical white papers? I haven't found anyone do as much in the area of showing test measurements to show an objective approach to cable design. Maybe you don't understand their technology.

Rich,

Patents are not science, they are just technical and legal ways of protecting intellectual property, very often used for marketing purposes or just to avoid others develop and manufacture a similar product. They are not educational or directed towards consumers.

The claim you make and I bolded is absurd. Anyway, can I also suggest you start a there on MIT cables, starting with links for the good information you refer and comments on it? It would be welcome by most WBF members. This thread is mainly on other brands, some drift is welcome, but IMHO it is becoming excessive.

 

[microstrip]

the audio guys that are into accurate sound reproduction or accurate sound recording are into flat response and neutral, but the recording industry has take their fork in the road and computer generated instruments have replace real instruments in the pop recording industry, but there are still those that like to adhere to accurate reproduction without tons of signal processing.

It seems B&W guys do not think so. I was just reproducing their opinion. BTW, what is the specific model of your 800's? B&W had several 800's.

 

[mep]

It seems B&W guys do not think so. I was just reproducing their opinion. BTW, what is the specific model of your 800's? B&W had several 800's.

It's not clear if he still has the 800s.