On the subject of tweaks!
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You have a good ear. Earlier today I had a power outage right when I was going to make the non CC video. It is very possible that the volume is not matched exactly. The volume level was set at 9:10 as this tape is very "hot"
I tend to agree after becoming familiar with both videos. But as expressed by a few of us that like to make videos available,the whole SQ is not faithfully captured. But one thing, you cannot fake clarity and a lack of stress. Not many post very involved classical music for a reason...but that's just my personal opinion. Thanks Hieukm
It's tough; after listening few times to passages to get familiar with I do hear differences.
Here so far (because I'm not done yet...I'll have to plug my laptop to my main sound system):
The second video comes up as more exciting but, on busy passages it also seems more congested than the first video which perhaps less exciting appears less congested.
This is a quick first impression and I'm not sure about levels matching as you guys mentioned some to that effect (outtage).
I'll have to get back on that...the laptop speakers is not the best indicator for this particular test here...IMO; it requires a better setting and listening.
* I can't believe that I'm listening to audio power cables...this is like . . . an audio tweak (tweet) impeachment.
Here so far (because I'm not done yet...I'll have to plug my laptop to my main sound system):
The second video comes up as more exciting but, on busy passages it also seems more congested than the first video which perhaps less exciting appears less congested.
This is a quick first impression and I'm not sure about levels matching as you guys mentioned some to that effect (outtage).
I'll have to get back on that...the laptop speakers is not the best indicator for this particular test here...IMO; it requires a better setting and listening.
* I can't believe that I'm listening to audio power cables...this is like . . . an audio tweak (tweet) impeachment.
For copyright reasons I moved the two test videos to private.
I think a fair amount of listeners that I respect favor the CC cord. For me it was a enlightening test.
I think a fair amount of listeners that I respect favor the CC cord. For me it was a enlightening test.
The music is subject to copyright law and not published. So the video is now private. The videos were a experiment for me and I shared it for a time.How you do that?
* Roger, what did you do?
Oh I see, the music ...
Can you redo the test but this time with Led Zeppelin? ...Something everyone use on YouTube.
Can you redo the test but this time with Led Zeppelin? ...Something everyone use on YouTube.
Yeah because it's a bummer that you took the time to setup, record, and posted the two audio test videos only to render them obsolete due to music copyright.
I wanted to analyse them further...it's fun and that's what's it's all about ... the search to audio musical fulfillment ... the apotheosis of nirvana bliss/wisdom.
I wanted to analyse them further...it's fun and that's what's it's all about ... the search to audio musical fulfillment ... the apotheosis of nirvana bliss/wisdom.
I'm reposting a copy of this thread here because I feel it has a lot of relevance here, more so than the original thread. Also none of the points I brought up were ever discussed or replied to.
Hi Emile,
I’m on the record here with my views on the Stable Table and it’s use under turntables. I agree with your assessment of the aluminum plate and understand that by placing the panzerholz on top and bottom of the unit you accomplish two things, deal with the aluminum plate and dull the reaction of the Stable Table from external influences, basically dealing with a non-existent problem that this tech introduced by sticking it where it doesn’t belong. Let’s be clear, Stable Table is a piece of cold tech and has nothing to do with musical instruments and their function. I appreciate your approach to solve a puzzle but I don’t see how your charts of materials translate to their interaction with a turntable sitting on top of a reactive instrument with continuous random resonance. From what you correctly stated and my knowledge it’s obvious that Stable Table was more of a Stable Nightmare. In this scenario my approach would be to eliminate the source of the problem and you decided to keep the problem and go through a lot of trouble trying to lessen negative effects of a component that you can’t change it without reversing it’s function.
Stable Table is a scientific instrument initially designed for a very specific purpose and in context of a motionless instrument. A turntable isn’t a digital box, it’s a living, moving musical instrument all about resonance and vibration, direct opposite in nature of what the Stable Table was designed to deal with. Aside from CD players with digital your primary concern is math and computation, resonance and tuning are secondary. Turntable systems are mechanical objects, it’s all about resonance and vibration. The motor is running, the platter is spinning, the bearing rumbling while a tiny stylus connected to fragile cantilever is working hard to create a perfect signal. Every tuning and detuning decision we make with a turntable has to do with controlling the resonance because the mechanism presenting the grooves to the stylus has a profound affect on the outcome. Then we have to preserve the unhindered continuous flow of those miniscule resonances to the conversion point to electric signal which still needs to be kept intact and alive until handoff to the next link in the chain. The vinyl playback system is voiced by controlling resonance, it’s our language and the way we communicate with the listener then you come and stick an effective resonance killer attacking the heart of the system with death as it’s mission as portrayed with the final flat line in the representation below. What have you changed with a couple pieces of plywood and some footers? Call it tuning or whatever else you want, the machine is still a sound killer. I’m a simple guy I don’t understand the rational of sticking one of these units under a turntable and ruining your sound. Daiza is another sample of the same irrationality, out of all the materials you could have chosen for this purpose you pick the well known sound killer to play with. What do you think has changed in nature of panzerholz by cutting grooves and sticking foam up it’s cracks? You even gave the madness a name. Yes you can call it voicing, tuning or whatever else you want, I disagree with your bottom line based on what I hear. Daiza definitely isn’t neutral and has the same sonic impact as panzerholz with the same dampening properties stripping the music off everything that matters.
The below diagram is from Herzan’s site, note the final goal depicted by the purple flatline of death and the last thing you want under a turntable is all the counteractive vibration created by the platform's actuators!
david
Hi Emile,
I’m on the record here with my views on the Stable Table and it’s use under turntables. I agree with your assessment of the aluminum plate and understand that by placing the panzerholz on top and bottom of the unit you accomplish two things, deal with the aluminum plate and dull the reaction of the Stable Table from external influences, basically dealing with a non-existent problem that this tech introduced by sticking it where it doesn’t belong. Let’s be clear, Stable Table is a piece of cold tech and has nothing to do with musical instruments and their function. I appreciate your approach to solve a puzzle but I don’t see how your charts of materials translate to their interaction with a turntable sitting on top of a reactive instrument with continuous random resonance. From what you correctly stated and my knowledge it’s obvious that Stable Table was more of a Stable Nightmare. In this scenario my approach would be to eliminate the source of the problem and you decided to keep the problem and go through a lot of trouble trying to lessen negative effects of a component that you can’t change it without reversing it’s function.
Stable Table is a scientific instrument initially designed for a very specific purpose and in context of a motionless instrument. A turntable isn’t a digital box, it’s a living, moving musical instrument all about resonance and vibration, direct opposite in nature of what the Stable Table was designed to deal with. Aside from CD players with digital your primary concern is math and computation, resonance and tuning are secondary. Turntable systems are mechanical objects, it’s all about resonance and vibration. The motor is running, the platter is spinning, the bearing rumbling while a tiny stylus connected to fragile cantilever is working hard to create a perfect signal. Every tuning and detuning decision we make with a turntable has to do with controlling the resonance because the mechanism presenting the grooves to the stylus has a profound affect on the outcome. Then we have to preserve the unhindered continuous flow of those miniscule resonances to the conversion point to electric signal which still needs to be kept intact and alive until handoff to the next link in the chain. The vinyl playback system is voiced by controlling resonance, it’s our language and the way we communicate with the listener then you come and stick an effective resonance killer attacking the heart of the system with death as it’s mission as portrayed with the final flat line in the representation below. What have you changed with a couple pieces of plywood and some footers? Call it tuning or whatever else you want, the machine is still a sound killer. I’m a simple guy I don’t understand the rational of sticking one of these units under a turntable and ruining your sound. Daiza is another sample of the same irrationality, out of all the materials you could have chosen for this purpose you pick the well known sound killer to play with. What do you think has changed in nature of panzerholz by cutting grooves and sticking foam up it’s cracks? You even gave the madness a name. Yes you can call it voicing, tuning or whatever else you want, I disagree with your bottom line based on what I hear. Daiza definitely isn’t neutral and has the same sonic impact as panzerholz with the same dampening properties stripping the music off everything that matters.
The below diagram is from Herzan’s site, note the final goal depicted by the purple flatline of death and the last thing you want under a turntable is all the counteractive vibration created by the platform's actuators!
david
I see two parts here Emile, first one has to do with materials, 2nd how and why. My response below is also related to your previous post.
1- The different random wood measurements you posted give no indication of application or how they convert to sound aside from some possible resonance peculiarity which is meaningless without context. One needs to take into account volume, shape, application and installation for measurements to have any meaning and if one’s methodology is only scientific and theoretical then you need to build a 3 dimensional mathematical model supporting the theory. Fortunately for all the best people making cartridges, tonearms, turntables and other such items are also artists with working experience of materials. A lot of the design work is done intuitively and emotionally and the final product as well engineered as it might be is still a self expression of the artist. Close to your location is Mr. van den Hul, he’s the complete package scientist and artist and I doubt you’re going to find anyone as knowledgeable and intuitive as him. Ask him about his process, use of materials and the various woods he uses in his designs, I very much doubt that he’s going to show you measurements.
2- I don’t build and sell wood platforms to change the sonic balance of equipment so I should ask you that same question, “how do you propose it does this when used under equipment with metal chassis and circuit boards? How does it modulate the sound?”
Please explain why when you transfer a digital file from one box to another over a 10cm connector the reproduced sound is affected and even drastically at times will change again using a different set of connectors and conductor yet when you open the transferred files they’re identical to the original. Explain the differences we hear with powercords and schuko. I’m not trying to catch you Emile just pointing out that in audio there’s a lot that we can’t explain or measure but we’re aware of their acoustic presence and connection to our psyche. To successfully navigate this unmeasurable one needs knowledge, experience and intuition. With panzerholz and your Daiza we know their physical properties but at the same time the way this material strips music of everything is difficult to explain, but we hear it.
No wood or other materials to tune equipment, there's Shun Mook for that. The only place I like to use wood is when dealing with a particular room node and depending on the environment and the frequency I decide the type of wood and design of the diffusor. What happened in Anthony’s install is unusual and I used a few pieces of wood as you suggested to introduce a degree of isolation but I have to be careful because there can be too much of a good thing.
david
Hi David,
I'm completely aware of your aversion to this technology. Yet there are several threads, I'm counting 8 in the "Vibration Control Forum", discussing the ins and outs of this, including applications for usage with turntables. So I'm not going to discuss this again.
It doesn't, that is the point I'm trying to make. You are claiming it "kills" the sound, so I'm interested in how you think it can do that.
What it does do, measurably, and you can even confirm this by a simple "knock" test, is reduce the time a metal chassis rings after being exited. It also decreases transformer hum, reduces capacitor microphonic distortion and lowers XO phase noise sensitivity to vibration. It's effect on tubes is interesting to investigate, but I have not done that yet. I'd say we would not disagree on a very direct impact on various parts of a vinyl playback system.
Atmasphere does not seem to think chassis damping would negatively impact performance according to the post quoted below. However I'm completely open to suggestions, and time permitting, even willing to investigate.
Spirit,
Just found this from the legendary Atmasphere himself when someone was asking about SRA:
"
atmasphere
6,951 posts
12-22-2010 4:11pm
It is impossible to mechanically over-damp audio equipment (I am not talking about electrical damping).
If you are of the opinion that this is not the case, then its likely that you are used to dealing with synergistic effects which is usually not a good way to set up a system.
Now it is possible to put so much damping product on a tube that you can damage the tube by overheating it, but this is an issue of heat rather than damping.
Let's say you are compensating for a brightness by using dull equipment elsewhere. The result may be an even tonality, but one that is lacking transparency and detail. You are much better off if the equipment stands on its own merits and lacks coloration on its own.
This is why a good stand for amplifiers or for the front end of the system is a good idea- the less vibration you have, the greater the ease that the gear can realize its musical potential."
I don't understand. The antonym of 'modulate' is 'leave alone.' If the device leaves the sound alone, why use it?
Taiko, you describe physical changes to the operartion of electronics. If I understand him, David is describing the sonic impact - what we hear - as a result of the device's use.
I was under the impression the Daiza's purpose or goal was to alter the sound, regardless of how it works.
Is the debate about whether the physical changes occur or whether that alteration is for the better or the worse?
Hi Tima,
Every object is subject to resonance modes. Damping capacity or energy dissipation ability of a material affects the vibration amplitude and vibration time of resonance frequencies. Take a tuning fork as an example, the material and shape define its resonance frequency, damping affects amplitude and ring time. Now attach a piece of rubber or panzerholz to the tuning fork, the resonance frequency, resonance amplitude and ring time will change.
Now rubber or panzerholz are going to have a different effect when placed underneath a component. They both have good damping abilities but, a compliant material like rubber coupled to a mass creates a mass spring system. A mass spring system has its own resonance, when its resonance frequency is exited, it will start amplifying that frequency and starts ringing. Every material has a degree of compliance, whether its rubber, steel or panzerholz. The latter 2 are too stiff to introduce this effect to a significant enough degree.
The goal of the Daiza is not to alter the sound, it is to provide a minimal resonant surface on which to place your component. Resonance modes in Panzerholz are damped to a degree which is not available in other materials, it will hardly resonate, and it will hardly ring.
How this is all very interesting but there is more to it then just that. We have to consider how vibrational energy travels or couples from 1 object to the other. This is a highly complex model. If interested read here for an explanation of Acoustic Impedance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_impedance
One of the actors here is velocity of sound which is different in different materials, if we simplify the model you could assume the larger the mismatch, the harder it is for vibrations to travel from 1 material to the other. The impedance mismatch between steel and rubber is very large, the mismatch between steel and panzerholz is even larger.
So there are quite a few variables in play, it's a very complex model, the variables of which can produce a very different outcome for any types of objects coupled together. So we audiophiles tend to just wing it, try something, and listen if we like its effect or not.
There is no doubt physical changes occur. The debate is indeed in how it affects the sound. Where I see positive attributes in using panzerholz in high end audio applications for its rather unique properties, David has seemingly taken the stance it's a spawn of hell.
Every object is subject to resonance modes. Damping capacity or energy dissipation ability of a material affects the vibration amplitude and vibration time of resonance frequencies. Take a tuning fork as an example, the material and shape define its resonance frequency, damping affects amplitude and ring time. Now attach a piece of rubber or panzerholz to the tuning fork, the resonance frequency, resonance amplitude and ring time will change.
Now rubber or panzerholz are going to have a different effect when placed underneath a component. They both have good damping abilities but, a compliant material like rubber coupled to a mass creates a mass spring system. A mass spring system has its own resonance, when its resonance frequency is exited, it will start amplifying that frequency and starts ringing. Every material has a degree of compliance, whether its rubber, steel or panzerholz. The latter 2 are too stiff to introduce this effect to a significant enough degree.
The goal of the Daiza is not to alter the sound, it is to provide a minimal resonant surface on which to place your component. Resonance modes in Panzerholz are damped to a degree which is not available in other materials, it will hardly resonate, and it will hardly ring.
How this is all very interesting but there is more to it then just that. We have to consider how vibrational energy travels or couples from 1 object to the other. This is a highly complex model. If interested read here for an explanation of Acoustic Impedance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_impedance
One of the actors here is velocity of sound which is different in different materials, if we simplify the model you could assume the larger the mismatch, the harder it is for vibrations to travel from 1 material to the other. The impedance mismatch between steel and rubber is very large, the mismatch between steel and panzerholz is even larger.
So there are quite a few variables in play, it's a very complex model, the variables of which can produce a very different outcome for any types of objects coupled together. So we audiophiles tend to just wing it, try something, and listen if we like its effect or not.
There is no doubt physical changes occur. The debate is indeed in how it affects the sound. Where I see positive attributes in using panzerholz in high end audio applications for its rather unique properties, David has seemingly taken the stance it's a spawn of hell.
I sold two complete systems this weekend because of the sound in my systems, with all components/sources on Diazas.
To each his own.
I and my MANY visitors LOVE the sound of that my systems produce with Diazas installed. I have not had ONE person discuss that maybe the sound was this or that. Everyone just says it sounds amazing to the point that they pull out their wallets.
To each his own.
I and my MANY visitors LOVE the sound of that my systems produce with Diazas installed. I have not had ONE person discuss that maybe the sound was this or that. Everyone just says it sounds amazing to the point that they pull out their wallets.
Hi Emile,
I don’t have an aversion to the tech, I explained why it has a negative affect on turntables. None of the threads mentioned address what I wrote above rather they’re mostly about the love of tweaking. As part of one recent threads recent experience with another turntable and Stable Table by the same person was disastrous.
It doesn't, that is the point I'm trying to make. You are claiming it "kills" the sound, so I'm interested in how you think it can do that.
What it does do, measurably, and you can even confirm this by a simple "knock" test, is reduce the time a metal chassis rings after being exited. It also decreases transformer hum, reduces capacitor microphonic distortion and lowers XO phase noise sensitivity to vibration. It's effect on tubes is interesting to investigate, but I have not done that yet. I'd say we would not disagree on a very direct impact on various parts of a vinyl playback system.
Atmasphere does not seem to think chassis damping would negatively impact performance according to the post quoted below. However I'm completely open to suggestions, and time permitting, even willing to investigate.[/QUOTE]
You’re going on a tangent here, “It kills the sound” simply means it ruins the sound quality of the system as heard even in various you tube videos, the effect is much greater in real life. It seems that our argument isn’t that this platform has an affect or not but rather the affect it has on sound quality. I haven’t measured what you’re implying above and or to what extent or how evenly vibration is reduced or even if that’s something that’s even desired. What I do know is the piece of equipment was designed, voiced and left the factory based on measurements without a “tuning tweak” as you described it. The parameters you mention that are altered by this platform where taken into account while voicing the product so why attack it in this manner?
If I’m not mistaken Ralph’s thread was in context of SRA platforms and according to the designer dampening has all kinds of affect on sound quality of equipment. SRA customizes their platforms to individual electronics. I own their products as do many of my clients what I hear from their platforms and racks are completely different from a slab of panzerholz and without any of the sound destroying qualities. Not all dampening technology is the same and I doubt that Ralph meant anything goes nor do I think many, if any designer worth his title wants his products tuned by panzerholz to this extent.
david
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