You need normal good headphones, not audiophile variety. Laptop and phone speakers are misleading. Or you can stream to small speaker like a Sonos.
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
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You need normal good headphones, not audiophile variety. Laptop and phone speakers are misleading. Or you can stream to small speaker like a Sonos.
Hi Tang,
This seems to be a totally different recording level, the CMS one also seems to be overloading your microphone, the THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) tops out at a whopping 175% :
CMS:
Daiza:
This seems to be a totally different recording level, the CMS one also seems to be overloading your microphone, the THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) tops out at a whopping 175% :
CMS:
Daiza:
Agree, but there's something more going on, 175% THD is insane. Sure distortion is likable, it's being done on purpose in guitar amplifiers for example to make the sound richer, but this is really too much on a video. So I suspect the microphone is distorting in video 1.
There does seem to be a repeating issue with the CMS videos, notice the same spikes in analysis of the other video recording here:
There are 3 very evident spikes, these appear to be resonance spikes. Some sort of unfavourable interaction between the ML3s and the CMS perhaps, or it's chassis resonance which the Daiza has been specifically designed for to address.
Not really. If any component causes an imbalance in the lows or highs, the user will reduce volume to balance out the sounds, otherwise, for example, it will sound either screechy or bloated. Some components with low distortion where you balance out the system you can increase the volume and the sound goes up so linearly and beautifully. You just can't increase the volume on some components without wanting to shut it off
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Not for the differences we’re talking about, it’s fundamentally wrong and the same issues and coloration are consistent in every video. It’s the Daiza. I asked Tang for this piece because it’s so nuanced and emotionally charged and the virtuosity of the musicians is almost tangible even through a computer. A difference in volume isn’t going make all that disappear, but panzerholz does!
david
I have explained the function of the grooves earlier in the thread, I assume that is clear now?
The foams provide a high degree of tuneability of the high frequency damping of the platform. There are 3 larger and 3 smaller foams. With all of them fitted the damping is even over the whole frequency range. If you want to increase high frequency ringing, you can for example take the following steps:
1) remove 1 small foam
2) remove 2 small foams
3) remove 1 large foam, put the previously removed 2 small foams back in
etc.
Now you need to take time to assess the impact of this, as the foam we use has the largest air pocket size available. They are deliberately oversized as there needs to be a certain amount of pressure between the panzerholz and the foam for it to be able to have a damping effect. So if you install one, it will be more compressed around its surface then it is internally. This pressure needs to even out through the foam which takes time. If you play music this will accelerate the process, without vibrations present it can take several days up to a week. Initially it will be overdamped as the foam density in touch with the panzerholz is too high. Ask me if this explanation is in any way unclear.
Please Emile, I’m not a novice you can save this tuning stuff for someone who’ll buy it. I was playing around with panzerholz long before you started with your Daiza the material strips everything from the sound that’s why there’s hollowness and ringing, what does some shoving some foam into the crack do when all the harmonics and fundamentals are gone?
We never met, we’re not competitors and I have nothing personal against you but the Daiza is one of those stealth products that initially can fool unsuspecting listeners but over time they’ll get uncomfortable with their sound and not realizing the sinkhole they fell into with the Daiza they’ll go through endless changes with their system never suspecting the Daiza. In this forum Tang is well respected and people will follow some of his moves and this is a bad one, otherwise I wouldn’t care except the Daiza also hurts my work when it destroys sound in this way.
david
Based on your calculus, is the derivative of panzerholz more integral to the system?
I may be the only one who doesn't know, so pardon my ask to catch up:
What is the Ngun album? Catalog number? Thanks.
Despite my cheap desktop speakers, the difference between the two videos was obvious; I was quite surprised at the degree.
Depending on circumstances, what they’re going on top of and system balance I can like most solid hardwoods but that’s irrelevant, buying sheets or blocks of these woods is easy and inexpensive people should find out for themselves. There are rack manufacturers that use other engineered woods than panzerholz, perhaps they can offer alternatives.
david
This is the exact pressing.
Most CBS isn't nearly as good. Tang is magic for finding good stuff on labels not known for being the best.
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Which is the exact pressing?
MS 6717
CMS 6717
AMS 6717
BRG 72354
SBRG 72354
Two-eye, Blue label?
Hi David, thank you for your reply. We are not looking for alternative materials, but I am interested in your experiences. Let me take the opportunity to explain why. Most of what I'm about to write is known to you, so do not consider this to be directly addressed to you, it may however be interesting to others.
We started using panzerholz about 2.5 years ago to solve address an issue we found when we started modifying the Table Stable active platforms. The issue was these active platforms "isolate" up to 200Hz, in order to do that the feedback circuit measures up to 2000Hz to account for harmonics, as a 200Hz resonance will have harmonics at 400Hz, 600Hz, 800Hz etc. They are fitted with an aluminium top platter sandwiched to a steel frame which causes no issues below 2000Hz. However Aluminium is very resonant above 2000Hz. It's resonance spectrum does not complement any type of musical instrument behaviour so we consider this an undesirable trait.
For painting a complete picture, material resonant behaviour is what makes musical instruments function. In stringed instrument, like a Violin or a guitar, the sound radiation source is mainly a top plate, in pianos it's a soundboard. The strings excite the natural resonances of the top plate/soundboard which are usually made out of wood. The wood provides a dual function, amplification, as it will amplify at its resonance frequencies, and damping, as it will damp some the high frequency resonance of the strings. Spruce is most often used as a soundboard material as it has low density and low internal friction (damping). Maple has higher density and higher internal friction, usually only used to construct the casing. Engineered woods can have even higher density and internal friction. Interestingly one of the applications of Panzerholz is to serve as the frame on which soundboards can be mounted in grand pianos.
So we tried a lot of materials, a whole range of wood types, the highest damping woods however came with strong resonance modes in the midrange, both upsetting the Table Stable feedback circuitry and obviously colouring the sound. Bamboo plywood was the best compromise between low midrange colouration and damping aluminium resonance as far as natural wood goes. Composite Bamboo did a bit better, but still not well enough. Then we tried a whole range of high damping composite materials, stones and artificial stones with varying results and finally ended up trying Panzerholz which did the best job by far. We ended up with replacing the stock 6mm aluminium top cover with a 10mm one and sandwiching it with 10mm Panzerholz.
Later on we discovered placing the Table Stable on top of a 40mm board of Panzerholz and adding another on top improved performance even more. Then we got enquiries from customers who wanted to try Panzerholz boards stand alone, so we shipped a bunch out, received feedback claiming good potential, incredible bass, significant increases in clarity but a bit of a "hard quality" to the upper midrange/lower highs, some upper midrange smearing and we should do something with it. So we did, we discovered there where some small modes in the range centered around 3K, we moved those to over 20K by machining all sorts of patterns into the Panzerholz, ended up with the current design as it has no repeatable distances across the board, think diffusion without repeating distances for a sound room. This took care of the upper midrange modes and the associated smearing. Then we had to address the hard quality to the upper midrange/lower highs.This had us baffled for a long time until a conversation with Table Stable introduced the concept of micro oscillations to us. Everything oscillates. Even 2 surfaces, bolted rigidly together, are subject to micro oscillations between them. This is for example what can loosen bolts over time. Even large masses are subject to this. You can move very heavy objects with minimal force if the surface beneath it vibrates. Another example, Tiny Multi Layer Ceramic Capacitors can vibrate significantly when exposed to AC voltages, they can even break off the PCB over time, as they actually cause PCBs to slightly warp under the vibrations they emit. Guess why nobody likes to use those in Hi-Fi.
The upper midrange/lower highs harshness was the whole board, with appliance on top, literally bouncing on the floor. An easy way out is using compliant footers, like rubber. But these have a side effect. They create a spring-mass system, the frequency response of this is the lower range passes through, up till the resonance frequency of the system where it amplifies (!), after which it starts damping. The amount of damping defines the amplitude of the resonance peak. This is NOT a neutral Frequency response:
If the compliant medium (rubber) is stiff, this can be way up the frequency range, up into the midrange for example. So we came up with the not rigidly mounted footer system damped by foam. Micro oscillations are damped and it has no resonance peak.
Now I've been writing the foams affect the high frequency damping. That is actually a gross oversimplification, if you remove any of those, you start introducing a degree of micro oscillations. That sounds wrong, but it isn't really, as it is just a way of voicing. Ultimately voicing is all about managing resonances. You introduce them in all kinds of flavours, like seasoning in cooking, a bit of spruce here, a little bit of maple there, maybe add a touch of copper, or maybe your dish needs a hint of silver?
Bottom line, the Daiza is virtually neutral. But do you want it to be neutral? Or do you want to use it to add some flavour?
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Make stuff out of wood and it will sound like the real thing!
So much for having a separate thread on panzerholz...
Taiko, what did you think of the two videos - which did you prefer?
So much for having a separate thread on panzerholz...
Taiko, what did you think of the two videos - which did you prefer?
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