Calm down, he had a good point (hard to see on your cell), I just tried to help.
* It's a very good idea to underline when using a link through words.
The WBF's color background blends pretty good with light gold brown color letters.
Zero Distortion: Tango Time
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Calm down, he had a good point (hard to see on your cell), I just tried to help.
* It's a very good idea to underline when using a link through words.
The WBF's color background blends pretty good with light gold brown color letters.
Sadly there are none of those available. I'm curious if the US Columbia Masterworks pressing is as good. Anyone know?
I bought the first of the three because it was in the best condition. We’ll see what it’s like when I receive it.
Hi Emile,
I’m on the record here with my views on the Stable Table and it’s use under turntables. I agree with your assessment of the aluminum plate and understand that by placing the panzerholz on top and bottom of the unit you accomplish two things, deal with the aluminum plate and dull the reaction of the Stable Table from external influences, basically dealing with a non-existent problem that this tech introduced by sticking it where it doesn’t belong. Let’s be clear, Stable Table is a piece of cold tech and has nothing to do with musical instruments and their function. I appreciate your approach to solve a puzzle but I don’t see how your charts of materials translate to their interaction with a turntable sitting on top of a reactive instrument with continuous random resonance. From what you correctly stated and my knowledge it’s obvious that Stable Table was more of a Stable Nightmare. In this scenario my approach would be to eliminate the source of the problem and you decided to keep the problem and go through a lot of trouble trying to lessen negative effects of a component that you can’t change it without reversing it’s function.
Stable Table is a scientific instrument initially designed for a very specific purpose and in context of a motionless instrument. A turntable isn’t a digital box, it’s a living, moving musical instrument all about resonance and vibration, direct opposite in nature of what the Stable Table was designed to deal with. Aside from CD players with digital your primary concern is math and computation, resonance and tuning are secondary. Turntable systems are mechanical objects, it’s all about resonance and vibration. The motor is running, the platter is spinning, the bearing rumbling while a tiny stylus connected to fragile cantilever is working hard to create a perfect signal. Every tuning and detuning decision we make with a turntable has to do with controlling the resonance because the mechanism presenting the grooves to the stylus has a profound affect on the outcome. Then we have to preserve the unhindered continuous flow of those miniscule resonances to the conversion point to electric signal which still needs to be kept intact and alive until handoff to the next link in the chain. The vinyl playback system is voiced by controlling resonance, it’s our language and the way we communicate with the listener then you come and stick an effective resonance killer attacking the heart of the system with death as it’s mission as portrayed with the final flat line in the representation below. What have you changed with a couple pieces of plywood and some footers? Call it tuning or whatever else you want, the machine is still a sound killer. I’m a simple guy I don’t understand the rational of sticking one of these units under a turntable and ruining your sound. Daiza is another sample of the same irrationality, out of all the materials you could have chosen for this purpose you pick the well known sound killer to play with. What do you think has changed in nature of panzerholz by cutting grooves and sticking foam up it’s cracks? You even gave the madness a name. Yes you can call it voicing, tuning or whatever else you want, I disagree with your bottom line based on what I hear. Daiza definitely isn’t neutral and has the same sonic impact as panzerholz with the same dampening properties stripping the music off everything that matters.
The below diagram is from Herzan’s site, note the final goal depicted by the purple flatline of death and the last thing you want under a turntable is all the counteractive vibration created by the platform's actuators!
david
I see two parts here Emile, first one has to do with materials, 2nd how and why. My response below is also related to your previous post.
1- The different random wood measurements you posted give no indication of application or how they convert to sound aside from some possible resonance peculiarity which is meaningless without context. One needs to take into account volume, shape, application and installation for measurements to have any meaning and if one’s methodology is only scientific and theoretical then you need to build a 3 dimensional mathematical model supporting the theory. Fortunately for all the best people making cartridges, tonearms, turntables and other such items are also artists with working experience of materials. A lot of the design work is done intuitively and emotionally and the final product as well engineered as it might be is still a self expression of the artist. Close to your location is Mr. van den Hul, he’s the complete package scientist and artist and I doubt you’re going to find anyone as knowledgeable and intuitive as him. Ask him about his process, use of materials and the various woods he uses in his designs, I very much doubt that he’s going to show you measurements.
2- I don’t build and sell wood platforms to change the sonic balance of equipment so I should ask you that same question, “how do you propose it does this when used under equipment with metal chassis and circuit boards? How does it modulate the sound?”
Please explain why when you transfer a digital file from one box to another over a 10cm connector the reproduced sound is affected and even drastically at times will change again using a different set of connectors and conductor yet when you open the transferred files they’re identical to the original. Explain the differences we hear with powercords and schuko. I’m not trying to catch you Emile just pointing out that in audio there’s a lot that we can’t explain or measure but we’re aware of their acoustic presence and connection to our psyche. To successfully navigate this unmeasurable one needs knowledge, experience and intuition. With panzerholz and your Daiza we know their physical properties but at the same time the way this material strips music of everything is difficult to explain, but we hear it.
No wood or other materials to tune equipment, there's Shun Mook for that. The only place I like to use wood is when dealing with a particular room node and depending on the environment and the frequency I decide the type of wood and design of the diffusor. What happened in Anthony’s install is unusual and I used a few pieces of wood as you suggested to introduce a degree of isolation but I have to be careful because there can be too much of a good thing.
david
Try the tune after Nigun. I think sonically this tune was recorded better than nigun.
Unfortunately IMHO it is not true in mobile phones - level matters and volume should be equal as Bob says. I do not expect such linearity of them, even from the more expensive
. And I can't understand how people that consider that some SOTA digital systems are unlistenable and sterile consider that a mobile phone is adequate for the purposes of comparing fine tweaks.Second, the differences we have in level are probably due to changes in position by the person handling the phone. If they are enough to change level they are surely changing significantly the tonal balance.
IMHO the minimum hardware for such purposes is a recorder such as the Tascam US2000 and a decent stereo microphone with a stand. I would happily lend my Korg MR2000s to Tang if it was not for distance and customs - but I fear that if the microphone is standing in a solid way the recordings would show no difference. In some aspects our ears are much more sensitive than ADCs.
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Bob,
We're colleagues and competitors it's not my business to wonder about your showroom nor my place to comment one way or another. You're not selling them and if for no other reason but out of common courtesy please don't get involved in this one, this is my business.
Thank you!
David
Exactly. Tablets (which I use to browse in the living room) and presumably phones (don't have one) don't have a cursor except in editing, even with a stylus. Showing a link when the cursor is upon it presumes the existence of one. Relying on visual contrast is immoderate design nowadays and ADA non-compliant. In code it is easy to change the default for how a link appears. I'll make a suggestion to change it.
Meanwhile, thank you to Folsom and Bob for taking the time.
Unfortunately IMHO it is not true in mobile phones - level matters and volume should be equal as Bob says. I do not expect such linearity of them, even from the more expensive
Second, the differences we have in level are probably due to changes in position by the person handling the phone. If they are enough to change level they are surely changing significantly the tonal balance.
IMHO the minimum hardware for such purposes is a recorder such as the Tascam US2000 and a decent stereo microphone with a stand. I would happily lend my Korg MR2000s to Tang if it was not for distance and customs - but I fear that if the microphone is standing in a solid way the recordings would show no difference. In some aspects our ears are much more sensitive than ADCs.
If the person is standing at different distances I agree. When tang is walking around I can understand, but usually he sits behind his desk, or might stand in front of it, I don't expect him to be recording in front unless he is walking back for a brief moment.
I already had an experience a couple of weeks ago where he sent me the same LP one notch up and one notch down on volume, I did not know, liked one (lower volume one), not the other. So I accept that for mobile phone recording, volume should be kept the same. Yet, across a series of videos this doesn't matter. tang is doing a series of videos, not one, not two. He has now done multiple piano videos with and without compare that have consistently had the same sonic element I mentioned in my above Bap comments.
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Ideally, the people here should not discuss the product, just the videos. Both discussing panz generically or discussing measurements is misleading, there are other threads for that. Maybe daiza or some other form of panz is good or bad in another system, what do people think about the videos tang is posting? Regarding the Nigun, the Bap, the Ida, where do they like/dislike it. That allows us to relate to what users are listening to/for. If someone likes one because it has a cleaner sound, say it. If someone finds one video has less harmonics, say it.
will also help if Daiza users, including Tang, say a particular attribute sounds X in the video but/and I can't /can hear it in my room. That gives the rest something to relate to.
If one of them was done a few months ago on another mobile, that is unfortunate, maybe Tang can repeat the video for us this week with the same mobile. He is also posting a series of videos.
will also help if Daiza users, including Tang, say a particular attribute sounds X in the video but/and I can't /can hear it in my room. That gives the rest something to relate to.
If one of them was done a few months ago on another mobile, that is unfortunate, maybe Tang can repeat the video for us this week with the same mobile. He is also posting a series of videos.
I am gathering my thoughts and in the process of learning through listening more different lps. One aspect of sound that is falling short across lps as long as the Daiza is in used is harmonic. This is quite obvious in piano. On dynamic, when the daiza was on cms, there was no loss. But when the daiza stands alone on the carpet floor, the sound is less dynamic comparing to CMS. I saw quite a few comments mentioned about this and that I agree.
There is a lot of work to do in order to make all new recordings on consistent basis. I havent said more because more recordings need to be listened.
When I do recording, I normally put four clicks on the volume of my preamps and donn't change. But I can not confirm if all my recordings in the past were at four clicks or not because I did not have to worry about making them consistent back then. And also some time my cleaning lady accidentally turned the knob when cleaned too. My recording position is always at my seat behind my table. I found moving plus minus a foot does not change the sound of recording.
There are other people who also have experience with Daiza in their systems. I know that adyc and another gentlemen in Taiwan discontinued the service of Daiza in their system. They can give comment on this too. Quite a few people on the other hand have mostly positive feedbacks. They also can give comment regarding harmonic and dynamic.
Kind regards,
Tang
There is a lot of work to do in order to make all new recordings on consistent basis. I havent said more because more recordings need to be listened.
When I do recording, I normally put four clicks on the volume of my preamps and donn't change. But I can not confirm if all my recordings in the past were at four clicks or not because I did not have to worry about making them consistent back then. And also some time my cleaning lady accidentally turned the knob when cleaned too. My recording position is always at my seat behind my table. I found moving plus minus a foot does not change the sound of recording.
There are other people who also have experience with Daiza in their systems. I know that adyc and another gentlemen in Taiwan discontinued the service of Daiza in their system. They can give comment on this too. Quite a few people on the other hand have mostly positive feedbacks. They also can give comment regarding harmonic and dynamic.
Kind regards,
Tang
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No rush Emile
david
Meanwhile David, I would appreciate it if you stop your continuing all out assault on the Daiza. You are ofcourse fully entitled to your opinion. But there is a large difference between stating that a few times, or dozens of times, even spawning new threads seemingly just for that purpose. People have read it now, many times over, you can trust they are fully aware of your opinion.
Furthermore so far you are alone, you have only heard a single one with removed foams defeating the purpose of the whole design.
We are selling between 8-10 of these each day. Have been for quite some time, with just 1 return. And virtually all place repeat orders. It seems impossible to me this is some form of mass delusion.
Furthermore, this is being read by a lot of people, you have caused a lot of people removing their Daizas and putting them back in again. None of them agree with you. This however is costing me a lot of time.
What you are doing right now would be the same as if I would start posting allover the board the AS2000 is a fake product. You are selling a few 100 worth of material at 250.000, install it personally and make sure they remove all their tweak, powercords and what not to hide the fact its a baked air product.
Now reading something like that would surely enflame you. The same applies to me. You apologized earlier in the thread for the way you go about it, yet you continue on the same path. So I’m asking you to stick to your apology and just stop now. Even though this whole thing is somehow boosting our sales volume.
I will answer your “return” questions next week, nothing mysterious about any of it.
Enjoy your weekend.
Tang, I’m not so sure it is fair to compare between two cellphones. My XS sounds BAD compared to my old S7, which doesn’t sound great. But I will say that despite knowing cellphone differences may account for much, the CMS in the last comparison was superior in every way I could hear. That’s just for your reference, I don’t give it a lot of weight due to cellphone differences, and that they are limited in quality to begin with.
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