Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Taiko Audio]

On dynamic, when the daiza was on cms, there was no loss. But when the daiza stands alone on the carpet floor, the sound is less dynamic comparing to CMS. I saw quite a few comments mentioned about this and that I agree.

Hi Tang,

It is not designed to be placed directly on carpet but to be placed on a rack shelf, amp stand or other solid surface. You will need something piercing the carpet underneath, so something with spikes. Your ML3s are not going to like sitting directly on carpet either. Although since they have rubber footers, who knows!

 

[Taiko Audio]

Tang, I’m not so sure it is fair to compare between two cellphones. My XS sounds BAD compared to my old S7, which doesn’t sound great. But I will say that despite knowing cellphone differences may account for much, the CMS in the last comparison was superior in every way I could hear. That’s just for your reference, I don’t give it a lot of weight due to cellphone differences, and that they are limited in quality to begin with.

There’s no argument, the first video is vastly better. As you are a technical person, did you look at the spectrum analysis of the files? Now wouldnt it be something really amazing if we have a platform underneath an electrical appliance lowering your volume level by 50%?

I tried something yesterday btw, at a certain volume level, your phone starts compressing while you don’t even notice it. For example, in the Arnold Overtures, if you play above a certain volume level, the bass hits are reduced in relative volume on the recording. Recording at lower volumes they are rendered, at higher volumes they almost become inaudible. Iphone XS btw.

 

[Folsom]

Phones do weird stuff to normalize volume. Their detection may vary based on the gear’s ability to either peak or sustain a peak to drive them into lower recording volume. So, no the stuff under the amps or volume on preamp are not my suspect (or Tang or cleaning lady). I have no suspect. I just say what I hear. And I accept that may not be accurate because I cannot know for sure what is going on here.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob,
We're colleagues and competitors it's not my business to wonder about your showroom nor my place to comment one way or another. You're not selling them and if for no other reason but out of common courtesy please don't get involved in this one, this is my business.
Thank you!
David

Hi David,

I will start with this, in all my years involved in audio which began in the 70's at either shows, reviews, forums or in person I have never experienced one manufacturer (you) TRASH another manufacturers PUBLICLY ( I have privately) products as vehemently has you have TRASHED the Diaza platforms.

Although I don't sell Daizas I am a VERY happy user of Diazas and I recommended that if people are interested to give one or two Diazas a try in their environments. I do this because there is a 30 day money back, no questions asked, guaranteed. I also understand that any system enhancement in my experience is always application dependent.

With Rhapsody giving it's personal experience and 100% endorsement behind the Diazas and telling people to give them a try IF they are interested and you trashing the product and saying it kills sound, period, I have no recourse other than to enter into this conversation.

You have a LOT of well deserved respect in the industry and for you to be trashing the Diazas as you have and continue to do really concerns me, because I know 100% that the Diazas do NOT kill the sound in my many and varied systems. I don't doubt for a minute that they might not work in other environments, but I know your statements that they Diaza just kill sound period, is NOT accurate and very misleading to readers of this forum.

Even if I didn't like the product I would jump in the food fight just because I see one mfg. trashing another mfg.'s product and in the universe, my friend, it is JUST NOT RIGHT.

So, although we are colleagues and competitors, I AM in this conversation and you are anyone else will NOT be telling me to be or not be in the conversation. I'm here.

My point on the Diaza issue is that all I say is that I have the Diaza inserted under ALL of my components. I invite people to come and listen and let them decide if it kills the sound or if they like the sound. Simple as that.

I apologize for the length of this post but waking up and seeing you tell me to stay out of this, sounded like a threat to me, and this is how I respond to threats.

Have a great day!

 

[tima]

My point on the Diaza issue is that all I say is that I have the Diaza inserted under ALL of my components. I invite people to come and listen and let them decide if it kills the sound or if they like the sound. Simple as that.

I've never used a Daiza so impossible for me to gauge the degree of difference it can make, good or bad. I heard a difference with the two Nigun videos but that's not sufficient to me for an assessment.

You have some really really nice audio gear at your place and experience setting it up. I have no interest in coming to NYC but if I did I'd be sure to visit your store. I speculate that your demonstrations are/were engaging and impressive before you got the platforms and after you put them in. This might not be a fair question: would a first time customer be less enthusiastic about your system sound if the platforms were not there? Do you have a sense of the extent of their contribution to the sound that you and customers hear? How many are needed to make that contribution? Thanks.

 

[Rhapsody]

I've never used a Daiza so impossible for me to gauge the degree of difference it can make, good or bad. I heard a difference with the two Nigun videos but that's not sufficient to me for an assessment.

You have some really really nice audio gear at your place and experience setting it up. I have no interest in coming to NYC but if I did I'd be sure to visit your store. I speculate that your demonstrations are/were engaging and impressive before you got the platforms and after you put them in. This might not be a fair question: would a first time customer be less enthusiastic about your system sound if the platforms were not there? Do you have a sense of the extent of their contribution to the sound that you and customers hear? How many are needed to make that contribution? Thanks.

Hi Tima,

Yes, my demonstrations were compelling prior to both the Extreme and Diaza, although my observation now was that it was good to some but to other's not their cup of tea. Now looking at my previous sound I would give it a B-, not bad but not great.

Then Ed (Eurodriver) visited me about six months ago. Ed suggested in our many topic conversations that I might try a Daiza platform....just for kicks. I though why not, 30 day return policy. I ordered one of the Diazas and stuck it under the AF DAC. I could instantly hear a significant difference.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I was convinced and then ordered a BUNCH more.

Visitors used to like all of the equipment but they didn't always say things like "I never heard this song sound like this before" or "this was the best sound that they ever heard". I hear those comments now all the time.

The Extreme took my digital over the top, but the VYGER and AF1 sitting on the Diazas went up a step as well after inserting the platforms under each of the TT's.

The simple answer is that in my system ONE Daiza was enough to convince me, but I am a believer that what works in one system/recipe may or may not work in another. All I say is that the Diazas are a big BARGAIN for what they do, if they happen to work in someone's set-up. If not, just send them back.

 

[ddk]

Meanwhile David, I would appreciate it if you stop your continuing all out assault on the Daiza. You are ofcourse fully entitled to your opinion. But there is a large difference between stating that a few times, or dozens of times, even spawning new threads seemingly just for that purpose. People have read it now, many times over, you can trust they are fully aware of your opinion.

Furthermore so far you are alone, you have only heard a single one with removed foams defeating the purpose of the whole design.

We are selling between 8-10 of these each day. Have been for quite some time, with just 1 return. And virtually all place repeat orders. It seems impossible to me this is some form of mass delusion.

Furthermore, this is being read by a lot of people, you have caused a lot of people removing their Daizas and putting them back in again. None of them agree with you. This however is costing me a lot of time.

What you are doing right now would be the same as if I would start posting allover the board the AS2000 is a fake product. You are selling a few 100 worth of material at 250.000, install it personally and make sure they remove all their tweak, powercords and what not to hide the fact its a baked air product.

Now reading something like that would surely enflame you. The same applies to me. You apologized earlier in the thread for the way you go about it, yet you continue on the same path. So I’m asking you to stick to your apology and just stop now. Even though this whole thing is somehow boosting our sales volume.

I will answer your “return” questions next week, nothing mysterious about any of it.

Enjoy your weekend.

Sure Emile, Like I said this was never personal.

david

 

[KeithR]

can't we all just be friends?

there are lots of strongly opinionated people on this forum. that's why its valuable. people can choose to go the way they wish.

 

[bonzo75]

can't we all just be friends?

there are lots of strongly opinionated people on this forum. that's why its valuable. people can choose to go the way they wish.

Fine if all are non commercial audiophile hobbyists, but when they are mixed with manufacturers and dealers there will always be an issue. For one it is a hobby and banter, for the other it is a livelihood. UK forums had a very strict policy against dealers

 

[steve williams]

can't we just all be friends?

there are lots of strongly opinionated people on this forum. that's why its valuable. people can choose to go the way they wish.

I totally agree Keith

IMO this discussion about Daiza in this thread and the other On the Subject if tweaks has run its course. We are all adults with a mind of our own and can make choices in life as we see that fit our needs

points have been made on both sides but now I feel the debate has become circuitous and non ending as everyone is making the same points all over again

Emile IMO has posted a request that this be put to rest. Bob who has no skin in the game has also posted a kind reply.


My advice to all concerned is to let this die and we move on. No one on one side is going to convince anyone in the other side and all I am seeing now are poster boys on both sides that are fanning the flames

to all concerned let’s maintain some equanimity here and move on. We saw a simiat problem here several years ago when a former administrator here dissed a product that literally divided this forum

so in summary I believe the debate is over. Emile and Bob have carried themselves well through out this debate and it was good to hear that in spite of the talk Emile is selling many of these platforms each day with only one ever returned

so as Keith says “ cant we all be friends and just let people choose what they see fit?”

 

[ddk]

Hi David,

I will start with this, in all my years involved in audio which began in the 70's at either shows, reviews, forums or in person I have never experienced one manufacturer (you) TRASH another manufacturers PUBLICLY ( I have privately) products as vehemently has you have TRASHED the Diaza platforms.

Although I don't sell Daizas I am a VERY happy user of Diazas and I recommended that if people are interested to give one or two Diazas a try in their environments. I do this because there is a 30 day money back, no questions asked, guaranteed. I also understand that any system enhancement in my experience is always application dependent.

With Rhapsody giving it's personal experience and 100% endorsement behind the Diazas and telling people to give them a try IF they are interested and you trashing the product and saying it kills sound, period, I have no recourse other than to enter into this conversation.

You have a LOT of well deserved respect in the industry and for you to be trashing the Diazas as you have and continue to do really concerns me, because I know 100% that the Diazas do NOT kill the sound in my many and varied systems. I don't doubt for a minute that they might not work in other environments, but I know your statements that they Diaza just kill sound period, is NOT accurate and very misleading to readers of this forum.

Even if I didn't like the product I would jump in the food fight just because I see one mfg. trashing another mfg.'s product and in the universe, my friend, it is JUST NOT RIGHT.

So, although we are colleagues and competitors, I AM in this conversation and you are anyone else will NOT be telling me to be or not be in the conversation. I'm here.

My point on the Diaza issue is that all I say is that I have the Diaza inserted under ALL of my components. I invite people to come and listen and let them decide if it kills the sound or if they like the sound. Simple as that.

I apologize for the length of this post but waking up and seeing you tell me to stay out of this, sounded like a threat to me, and this is how I respond to threats.

Have a great day!

Hi Bob,
Of course your input is welcome I only asked not be engaged in this one out of total respect for you. I'm sorry if it sounded like a threat it wasn't one, you put me on the spot about your showroom needless to say I'm direct in nature and the way I communicate what I said was to avoid yet another personal confrontation.

You're right that my public approach to this product is unusual even for me, panzerhloz has come up in several threads before and my comments were always limited. I've had a lot of push back on my approached this time even from good friends, I'm not happy with it myself either because I know that there's a good person behind the product. There's nothing to gain for me personally here and in fact the opposite is true so if I'm all out on this one I have a very good reason for my actions.

david

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Bob,
Of course your input is welcome I only asked not be engaged in this one out of total respect for you. I'm sorry if it sounded like a threat it wasn't one, you put me on the spot about your showroom needless to say I'm direct in nature and the way I communicate what I said was to avoid yet another personal confrontation.

You're right that my public approach to this product is unusual even for me, panzerhloz has come up in several threads before and my comments were always limited. I've had a lot of push back on my approached this time even from good friends, I'm not happy with it myself either because I know that there's a good person behind the product. There's nothing to gain for me personally here and in fact the opposite is true so if I'm all out on this one I have a very good reason for my actions.

david

All good

 

[ddk]

All good

Thank you!
david

 

[Taiko Audio]

Now peace has returned to this thread, some quick practical considerations for Tang:

1) Placing the Daizas on carpet is not what they are designed for. It just does not work well.
2) Rubber, compliant, or ball bearing footers defeat most of the Daizas purpose.
3) I do not consider the Daiza to be a replacement for the CMS stand, although it could practically serve that purpose. Sure you can attempt to go there, and you may even end up preferring it that way, but the floor would need to be solid, or its just not an option. The CMS is a stand, the Daiza is a tweak. There is a ~10 fold price differential between them for good reason.
4) My suggestion is to place the Lamms back on the CMS stands.
5) Then try with the Daizas between Lamms and stands but use different solid footers, I am sending you a bunch on Monday.
6) From the video analysis it looks to me like there are some resonance issues with the Lamms on the CMS stands as there appear to be consistent small band spikes at 2K, 4K and some residual at 8K. This could translate into a degree of harshness and/or sibilance. Also from video analysis the Daizas do seem to significantly reduce those spikes. They may be able to completely remove those if the rubber footers are replaced.
7) Then its just a matter of taking your time to evaluate if you prefer with or without.
8) I have actually learned a thing or 2 from all of this, the remote diagnosing using video is interesting, am going to investigate practical applications.
9) As I understand it, the Bixby voice control agent introduced with the S10 is continuously modifying your microphone input to improve speech recognition. This is something to consider when making video recordings. Just FYI.

 

[Folsom]

You can't upload anything but regular phone video to YouTube unless you go through video editing software. It's unfortunate. I tried many recording programs and formats to no avail. It would have been nice to skip the video and select sampling rate etc.

 

[awsmone]

Now peace has returned to this thread, some quick practical considerations for Tang:

1) Placing the Daizas on carpet is not what they are designed for. It just does not work well.
2) Rubber, compliant, or ball bearing footers defeat most of the Daizas purpose.
3) I do not consider the Daiza to be a replacement for the CMS stand, although it could practically serve that purpose. Sure you can attempt to go there, and you may even end up preferring it that way, but the floor would need to be solid, or its just not an option. The CMS is a stand, the Daiza is a tweak. There is a ~10 fold price differential between them for good reason.
4) My suggestion is to place the Lamms back on the CMS stands.
5) Then try with the Daizas between Lamms and stands but use different solid footers, I am sending you a bunch on Monday.
6) From the video analysis it looks to me like there are some resonance issues with the Lamms on the CMS stands as there appear to be consistent small band spikes at 2K, 4K and some residual at 8K. This could translate into a degree of harshness and/or sibilance. Also from video analysis the Daizas do seem to significantly reduce those spikes. They may be able to completely remove those if the rubber footers are replaced.
7) Then its just a matter of taking your time to evaluate if you prefer with or without.
8) I have actually learned a thing or 2 from all of this, the remote diagnosing using video is interesting, am going to investigate practical applications.
9) As I understand it, the Bixby voice control agent introduced with the S10 is continuously modifying your microphone input to improve speech recognition. This is something to consider when making video recordings. Just FYI.

Well I have no skin in the game

firstly I was surprised by the difference in the sound quality between the videos
i listened on three difference headphones with different frequency balances

despite Steve assertion it’s all over, its pretty interesting

i have been reading an article on different woods affects on making xylophones

it’s not a dissimilar issue

the first recording has an emaphasis on the formats on the violin, although unnaturally prominent they add a certain vivaciousness to the recording

the Second recording seems to bleach these resonances out and replace with a mid bass emphasis

I would be concerned with a tweak that so fundamentally affected the sound, I was actually really surprised it was so evident

to me the fundamental problem is not the platforms these are on

actually I have no clue what a cms or a daiko even is ?

but I do know about the sound

the first the formats are too prominent on the violin in video 1

in the second video the whole aspect of formats has be quelched

I am not sure that either is corrects, to me the system needs some adjustment without any fancy boards first.....is that the thing we are debating ?

the videos are actually quite good in sound quality and clearly Tang’s system is transparent
I suggest Tang listen to some real violin playing and he will realise the formats are not so overwhelming
the switch to the helmholz wooden resonator is always there but not overwhelmingly

you cannot get there by quelching harmonics

just my two cents ........

 

[awsmone]

I should mention I also enjoy Tangs videos...
and agree in their value in fact these recent Tang videos are most illuminating

 

[Taiko Audio]

I should mention I also enjoy Tangs videos...
and agree in their value in fact these recent Tang videos are most illuminating

Hi awsmone,

I agree its interesting, although unfortunately these 2 recordings where made on different phones where the new one has some recording issues. They are clearly not even close the same recording as evident in the spectrum analysis.

I only caught this myself from noticing how much better the video quality is in the 2nd video. Otherwise I would still have been scratching my head on how this could be possible!

CMS is Critical Mass Systems, generally considered as one of the best rack systems available.

Daiza is an anti resonance tweak which you can insert between component and rack shelf.

 

[awsmone]

Hi awsmone,

I agree its interesting, although unfortunately these 2 recordings where made on different phones where the new one has some recording issues. They are clearly not even close the same recording as evident in the spectrum analysis.

I only caught this myself from noticing how much better the video quality is in the 2nd video. Otherwise I would still have been scratching my head on how this could be possible!

CMS is Critical Mass Systems, generally considered as one of the best rack systems available.

Daiza is an anti resonance tweak which you can insert between component and rack shelf.

Thanks

i am only going on what I hear

I agree they are tonally very different

as I said I know nothing of these support systems

if it’s due to a recording difference rather than the supports that could be

I make no comments on the equipment just that the first iS overly emphasis on the formants and the second blunts them

if what you say is correct

I suggest they are re-recorded by Tang the same way both times, it’s unfortunate if what you say is the case that this wasn’t mentioned explicitly but as Folsom has already mentioned it’s not so easy to record things well.....and not everyone is aware of technical issues in digital microphone recording ....

 

[Tango]

I suggest Tang listen to some real violin playing and he will realise the formats are not so overwhelming
...

Believe it or not I have been listening to harmonic and decay on piano these past few days extensively. From a Yamaha not a Steinways or Borsendorfer though. I need to to find my way to study to real violin as you said.

You are cool awsmone.

Tang