Zero Distortion: Tango Time
- Thread starter bonzo75
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I'll stop ejaculating if it keeps you engaged. Let's go back to the crux of the matter that we disagree on panzerholz and how it affects sound when used in this manner,.
Whatever else might or might not be going in the videos didn't change anything for me, what I hear in them is what I heard several years ago when I conducted my own experiments with panzerholz. I heard the same anomalies 3 times last week, twice with Daizas which were easily verifiable and once in the panzerholz rack. I didn't even know what the rack was I just commented on the quality of the sound and system owner pointed out the rack and said that it was panzerholz. There was a 4th system I heard with something that looked like a panzerholz covered Stable Table but I didn't verify what it was so I never considered it the cause of what I disliked about that system.
Lamms have been around for sometime now and people have tried hard footers with them including Steve with very negative results, CS footers he's using now aren't solid but compliant. Also Vladimir Lamm warns against using such aftermarket footers with any of his products.
One question, how did you determine that what you measured and whatever it's supposed to represent is the fault of CMS or Lamm's feet from the video? Couldn't it be anything from your devices speakers to the recording, cartridge, tonearm alignment, the turntable, the cables, other components, a microphonic tube, low level noise in the background, etc., etc., etc?
In any case the complaints and the observations against panzerholz/Daiza were about loss of harmonics, micro and macro dynamics not this suggested resonance.
This is a good example of sending someone down the rabbit hole in search of the lost fart! Why I'm so vocal against such tweaks. In this case Tang and also in other cases the owners have no issues with their sound or systems, the negative reaction is only when Daiza is introduced and back to satisfaction, even for some video watchers here when Daizas are removed. You can ask your customers in private if what I say here is true or not. The logical approach, at least for me, would be to tell the person to remove the cause of aggravation and enjoy their system, as I've done with products I make or sell. You're instructing your customers, in this case Tang to disregard the manufacturer and lobotomize his $160,000 amplifiers that he's perfectly happy with without Daiza based on a measurement from your computer's speakers. With further instructions to continue borrowing down the rabbit hole in case the lobotomy didn't work.
My so called Unprofessional approach= Eliminate the cause of the problem.
The Professional approach= Go deeper down the rabbit hole.
david
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Tang, I sent your video ...
...to my Mom this morning; she said ... "Robert (my French name) that is lovely."
I replied; "Mom it's from an audiophile with great taste in great classical music."
...to my Mom this morning; she said ... "Robert (my French name) that is lovely."
I replied; "Mom it's from an audiophile with great taste in great classical music."
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
As an owner of CMS racks as well as the same amp and preamp as Tang I cannot believe that there are resonance issues with the Lamm on the CMS. CMS racks function on the first law of thermodynamics. simply put IMHO resonance is a non issue.
Emile you heard at my house the same amps on the same amp stand as Tang. There is no resonance
Emile you heard at my house the same amps on the same amp stand as Tang. There is no resonance
Bob at Rhapsody, what type of footers are you using under the 18 or so components that are sitting on these platforms?
I agree, should not be there. Also did not hear anything in your system. I don’t even know if it something which is audible as it might simply be the phone recording. Which is interesting to figure out since we’re using it for evaluation now. The Samsung S10 does apparantly apply processing on the recorded stream. It might be interesting to have a recording of Nigun on just the CMS stands with the S10. Then we have a S9 versus S10 recording. But It’s up to Tang if he wants to do that obviously.
When I measure a frequency sweep on my loudspeakers with or without platform I measure no difference at all. Yet the video analysis shows significant differences. I do wonder what is causing that.
This is interesting as the acoustic impedance mismatch between panzerholz and aluminium or steel is very large, in the order of 100-150 times for aluminium and about half that for steel. That should make it very hard for sound to cross the barrier. Think sound in air trying to enter concrete. Now there is more to it then that of course. But think about claiming it “deadening the sound”. It would interfere with the CMS philosophy of distributing or spreading energy through the whole system though. I’m not familiar with CMS products nor their mode of action. I just read the description on their website.
Not to speak out of hand for Bob, but he is a child of the 60’s...these are the magic footers
Cheers!
ALF
That we do! You do have to pick your application. I have no argument with that. For example in a Piano, it is used to “decouple” the soundboard from the frame. But you would not want to use it as a soundboard
I myself have not noticed such effects unless used the wrong way / in the wrong position, like the example above.
I also have a hard time believing companies like Artesania, Kharma, Kaiser, Clearaudio to name a few are delusional. You do not pick this material for fun or bragging rights, it’s expensive, does not look pretty, is hard on tooling and the dust is unhealthy so you need elaborate dust control measures.
Hi Peter,
For the most part I have my two TT's (VYGER and AF1P) and preamps and amps sitting with their stock footers sitting on the Diazas.
The one exception is the Aqua Formula XHD which I currently have double Diazas and Walker brass footers under the XHD as the AF rubber feet soften the sound.
I have several Kondo pieces (Ongaku, M1000II, 2A3s) that all sit directly on the Diazas along with several Jadis pieces as well.
The Diazas sit on either SRA or CMS stands and a few of the big Pilium 300 lb amps sit on the Diazas which sit on granite slabs which sit on the floor.
And with regards to ALF's comment YEP, child of the 60's here with my "magic carpet ride"
I recorded a small piece of the Kaiser / Kondo display at the Munich show in 2018. This is panzerholz speakers, racks and stands. Does this sound dead?
Another snippet from the back of the room:
Another snippet from the back of the room:
One of my friend/customer's room with Kaiser Panzerholz stands and Kaiser Kawero speakers. No video but I assure you it's not dead sounding.
I think I've sold 5 or 6 pairs of Kaisers and I never have thought they sounded dead. They sound natural to me and to the people that bought them.
I think I've sold 5 or 6 pairs of Kaisers and I never have thought they sounded dead. They sound natural to me and to the people that bought them.
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Ok then. This? Rhapsody live, everything on Daiza:
And a real live snippet, also taken in New York, as a phone recording quality reference:
And a real live snippet, also taken in New York, as a phone recording quality reference:
But Ked, that room is GIGANTIC and with moderate music as what the video that was just posted I disagree that it sounds dead. I do think that when you push the Kawero Classics in that room it just doesn't work because the speaker is too small for the monster sized room.
Last year Kaiser had their new big speaker there but the Kaguras did not drive the speaker sufficiently again due to the size of the room.
My feeling on Kaiser in that room is not a good barometer of the Kaiser and Kondo sound, but that's just my sense of it.
I'm sorry but I listen to these videos through my laptop and they just don't sound dead to me.
Hi Tang,
You are the only one that hear the sound of your system with or without Daiza without being coloured by the phone. Can you comment that there is no loss of harmonics or dynamics using Daiza? I know that you have made some comments before. But in view of so much discussions, can you let us know your observations again?
To me, there is slight loss of dynamics or change of tonal balance using Daiza even using the foams. To be fair, I bought Daiza not to be used under my pre or power amps. It happens that while experimenting with different footers with David, I asked David's observations to use Daiza under my preamp. He also did criticize the use of
SYMPOSIUM Precision SuperCouplers and Stacore CLD footers under my pre and power. So I believe David is not out to get anyone. His observations are sincere and fair.
You are the only one that hear the sound of your system with or without Daiza without being coloured by the phone. Can you comment that there is no loss of harmonics or dynamics using Daiza? I know that you have made some comments before. But in view of so much discussions, can you let us know your observations again?
To me, there is slight loss of dynamics or change of tonal balance using Daiza even using the foams. To be fair, I bought Daiza not to be used under my pre or power amps. It happens that while experimenting with different footers with David, I asked David's observations to use Daiza under my preamp. He also did criticize the use of
SYMPOSIUM Precision SuperCouplers and Stacore CLD footers under my pre and power. So I believe David is not out to get anyone. His observations are sincere and fair.
It sounds weird. The piano doesn't sound right on the video. I'm not saying what is causing it, but the piano sounds wrong.
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