NORTH AMERICAN PUBLIC DEBUT OF TECHDAS AIR FORCE ZERO AND WILSON AUDIO MASTER CHRONOSONIC/SUBSONIC

[ddk]

Actually I did ask David what happens if he is not around. He said he would leave me his treasure map.

Tang

Don't need one, the pump's make and model are on the unit you just call the manufacturer and get another one or equivalent.The motor is 115v AC, in case of my demise and death of electronics you can simply purchase simply frequency regenerator off of Amazon and plug it directly, the AS2000 is built to last !

david

 

[microstrip]

My point is Linn is an easy accessible tt. Is it a good reviewing tool?

Tang

The answer depends on the context. People can make a review of for example, an amplifier or speakers in a system using a Linn turntable. It is perfectly normal, most people know what is the Linn sound. However, using such turntable for review of a tonearm could be unfair - the Linn turntable has strong characteristics and particularities that could affect significantly the tonearm performance. But some tonearms were developed to be Linn comaptible - than it is perfectly natural to use the Linn.

 

[ddk]

If TechDAS is willing to lend a review AF0 sample to MF, AS can do the same. He can have a direct comparison between the two. That's going to be interesting.

What for ? AS2000 sold out to knowledgeable audiophiles with independent brains and plenty of real world experience of other top tables,who can make their own decisions. I assume the majority of AF0 clients are the same. Besides, I have a collection of the best tts and cartridges ever made on display people can hear the differences for themselves and not just read about them and guess.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Do you think one gives any thought about long term service and parts availability when deciding to buy one of these complicated, extremely rare turntables? Or does that matter to these buyers?

I give thought to this. It certainly matters to me.

I also take into account geographic location of the manufacturer. It gives me no small amount of comfort to know that I can drive the Aesthetix equipment to Jim White and that I can drive the amplifiers to the VTL.

(Obviously the Gryphon Pendragon is an exception to this.)

 

[microstrip]

(...) Do you think one gives any thought about long term service and parts availability when deciding to buy one of these complicated, extremely rare turntables? Or does that matter to these buyers?

In fact, most of these complicated, extremely rare turntables are conceptually very simple and it would always be possible to find someone with expertise to keep them working. Pneumatic and synchronous motors are not rocket science ...

This does not apply however to designs using specialized custom electronics, using programmable devices to keep the motor spinning at the very exact speed!

 

[steve williams]

What for ? AS2000 sold out to knowledgeable audiophiles with independent brains and plenty of real world experience of other top tables,who can make their own decisions. I assume the majority of AF0 clients are the same. Besides, I have a collection of the best tts and cartridges ever made on display people can hear the differences for themselves and not just read about them and guess.

david

Why you ask?

I am sensing that most every one here would be interested in a comparison. You can certainly use the same SME 3012R arm and any of your exotic cartridges. It's not a matter of independent brains but rather a true head on comparison.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Is the AF0 going to Hifi News for review?

I know that they have reviewed the AF1 before AND most importantly *for me* they’ll actually measure it and publish the specs, which would be really interesting.

Please note I am not saying you just go on measurements but it will be very interesting to see the measured gain vs AF1. Especially the rumble data and w&f.

 

[ALF]

Why you ask?

I am sensing that most every one here would be interested in a comparison. You can certainly use the same SME 3012R arm and any of your exotic cartridges. It's not a matter of independent brains but rather a true head on comparison.

Comparison...I’m open for anyone to drop by with their AS2000: I’ll even have a deck of cards available for adjusting the VTA on their 3012rs.

Cheers!

 

[steve williams]

Comparison...I’m open for anyone to drop by with their AS2000: I’ll even have a deck of cards available for adjusting the VTA on their 3012rs.

Cheers!

So Alf

Are we to infer that you are an owner of an AF0

 

[ALF]

Hi Steve,

It is safe to infer that I no longer have the AS2000. Technically, at this time there are no production AF0s; however, I understand that the first run is almost full.

Cheers!

 

[ddk]

Why you ask?

I am sensing that most every one here would be interested in a comparison. You can certainly use the same SME 3012R arm and any of your exotic cartridges. It's not a matter of independent brains but rather a true head on comparison.

Then I have to get an AF0 !

Personally I value these special tables on their own merits and not for head to head shoot out, at least sonically. They either have it or they don't the rest is immaterial. For example in absolute terms the Thorens Reference falls short of the Micros, EMT 927 & AS in many areas and is also colored but it doesn't make it any less precious. The Thorens still performs at the Beyond level and has it's own unique interpretation different from the the rest. This is a parameter unlike comparing ordinary expensive high end tts judging mundane elements like bass depth, soundstage width, attack or other things hifi one can read about in reviews or measure. The "Beyond" category is different, you can't read about it or explain it nor do I have the words, one needs to experience it to know what'd it about. Tang might do better explaining than me he's made the transition from excellent to "Beyond" in his tts and electronics and decluttered his system enough to hear every nuance.

I know from the differences in design elements and approach that there will be a clear and marked difference in the nature of sound and safe to say that neither one of these tables will be the bottleneck in any system.

david

 

[PeterA]

It depends Peter, some do and some don't but at least a couple decades of problem free performance should be a given and expected at this level, but doesn't always happen. Having dealt with old turntables and service issues my approach to AS2000 was none proprietary parts and user serviceability, that doesn't mean compromise in quality just simplicity for service and/or upgrades of electronics and pump. Mechanically AS2000 has no moving parts to wear out or break so barring some kind of very extreme catastrophe it should go on forever .

david

David, I think your design is special for this very reason. It seems a near perfect (what is perfect?) execution of a simple design. Having seen and heard the AS2000, I would have no worries owning such a table. I don't know enough about the TechDAS tables to know much, but they seem considerably more complicated than your design. I could be wrong.

Anyway, it seems that long term serviceability is not a concern.

 

[PeterA]

IMHO a reviewing tool must be something available and accessible, that is known by a significant number of people. Neither the AS2000 or the AF0 seem to be in this class.

I see your point, but Fremer is a major reviewer and he uses a discontinued mega table with I believe only one arm mount. I was thinking that to review arms and cartridges and even to assess the "sound" of other tables in for review, a flexible, purportedly near colorless table like the AS2000 would be the perfect tool and platform on which to test components. It will never happen, so it is just a discussion point.

My other point was that if I were spending that kind of money, I would certainly want to hear other available options, especially ones that are as highly praised as the AS2000 and cost much less. Perhaps it is just speculation that Fremer would even consider buying one of these.

 

[steve williams]

What for ? AS2000 sold out to knowledgeable audiophiles with independent brains and plenty of real world experience of other top tables,who can make their own decisions. I assume the majority of AF0 clients are the same. Besides, I have a collection of the best tts and cartridges ever made on display people can hear the differences for themselves and not just read about them and guess.

david

Fremer however will have an AF0. You don't need an AF0 . You have the AS2000. I bet the entire membership here would love to hear Fremer's impression of both tables. There will no doubt be differences but I am betting there will be similarities as well.

I don't agree with Ron's point about it not being a fair comparison as the AS2000 is no longer in production when the same reality exists for the AF0 as it will be sold out as well.

The only other way that I am aware is the gentleman in Thailand who has 2 AS2000's and purchased an AF0

 

[ddk]

Fremer however will have an AF0. You don't need an AF0 . You have the AS2000. I bet the entire membership here would love to hear Fremer's impression of both tables. There will no doubt be differences but I am betting there will be similarities as well.

I don't agree with Ron's point about it not being a fair comparison as the AS2000 is no longer in production when the same reality exists for the AF0 as it will be sold out as well.

The only other way that I am aware is the gentleman in Thailand who has 2 AS2000's and purchased an AF0

Many of the most cherished tts and all the ones I love are all out of production, that doesn't make them irrelevant specially when there's an active 2nd market for all of them.

david

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Fremer however will have an AF0. You don't need an AF0 . You have the AS2000. I bet the entire membership here would love to hear Fremer's impression of both tables. There will no doubt be differences but I am betting there will be similarities as well.

I don't agree with Ron's point about it not being a fair comparison as the AS2000 is no longer in production when the same reality exists for the AF0 as it will be sold out as well.

The only other way that I am aware is the gentleman in Thailand who has 2 AS2000's and purchased an AF0

The only way of doing this fairly is to send Kedar both the AF0 and the AS2000

 

[microstrip]

I see your point, but Fremer is a major reviewer and he uses a discontinued mega table with I believe only one arm mount. I was thinking that to review arms and cartridges and even to assess the "sound" of other tables in for review, a flexible, purportedly near colorless table like the AS2000 would be the perfect tool and platform on which to test components. It will never happen, so it is just a discussion point.

My other point was that if I were spending that kind of money, I would certainly want to hear other available options, especially ones that are as highly praised as the AS2000 and cost much less. Perhaps it is just speculation that Fremer would even consider buying one of these.

Peter,

What is being debated is mainly that the almost uniqueness due the very few units and privacy of the AS2000 do not make it an acceptable reviewing tool. Fortunately most reviewers do not carry or need direct compares - it is a fast way of carrying fast reviews, but of reduced value IMHO.

Can I ask you why you say the AS2000 is "near colorless"? Did you compare it to other turntables?

And yes, these are just discussion points between SME30 owners ...

 

[ddk]

The only way of doing this fairly is to send Kedar both the AF0 and the AS2000

I think your read his mind!

david

 

[ddk]

Peter,

What is being debated is mainly that the almost uniqueness due the very few units and privacy of the AS2000 do not make it an acceptable reviewing tool. Fortunately most reviewers do not carry or need direct compares - it is a fast way of carrying fast reviews, but of reduced value IMHO.

Can I ask you why you say the AS2000 is "near colorless"? Did you compare it to other turntables?

And yes, these are just discussion points between SME30 owners ...

You don't need direct comparison, AS2000's sound is very pure you'll recognize it easily !

Reviewers are individuals too, they can decide what they need or don't need by themselves.

david

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

What is being debated is mainly that the almost uniqueness due the very few units and privacy of the AS2000 do not make it an acceptable reviewing tool. Fortunately most reviewers do not carry or need direct compares - it is a fast way of carrying fast reviews, but of reduced value IMHO.

Can I ask you why you say the AS2000 is "near colorless"? Did you compare it to other turntables?

And yes, these are just discussion points between SME30 owners ...

Hello Francisco, I guess I was not clear enough I apologize. Of course a direct comparison would be interesting but I was thinking more that if Mike were to consider buying such an expensive turntable if it were me I would want to hear the alternatives before making such a purchase decision. I am not suggesting a direct comparison for any review that is not necessary.

And my point about the reviewers tool is simply that the turntable can take four arms. Framers current turntable is not even in production and very few people have heard it so that argument is not very strong in my opinion.

As for the coloration on the AS 2000. I’ve heard the turntable but it is only supposition on my part that there is very low coloration. It is based on what I heard and what I have heard from those who own it. That is just a guess on my part.