Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[djsina2]

At some point tang should completely ignore his in room impressions, listen to the videos, and tell us what he understands from them and then how similar they are to his in room experience.

Tang should take videos with no video and also no text indication of what equipment is being used.

 

[Hieukm]

I am hearing two different track agains. The daiza track seems fill the room up more while losing on musicality.

 

[Rhapsody]

]

Please Emile, I’m not a novice you can save this tuning stuff for someone who’ll buy it. I was playing around with panzerholz long before you started with your Daiza the material strips everything from the sound that’s why there’s hollowness and ringing, what does some shoving some foam into the crack do when all the harmonics and fundamentals are gone?

We never met, we’re not competitors and I have nothing personal against you but the Daiza is one of those stealth products that initially can fool unsuspecting listeners but over time they’ll get uncomfortable with their sound and not realizing the sinkhole they fell into with the Daiza they’ll go through endless changes with their system never suspecting the Daiza. In this forum Tang is well respected and people will follow some of his moves and this is a bad one, otherwise I wouldn’t care except the Daiza also hurts my work when it destroys sound in this way.

david

David,

Again, I do NOT sell Diazas.

Can you explain to me why maybe 50 people have visited me since I installed Daizas under all of my components and I would say that all 50 people loved the sound they heard in my "challenged NYC/commercial building room", NOT via videos, but in the room listening, with let's say 5 different sets of speakers and again 5 different combinations of electronics?

If the Diazas are ruining the sound and I have terrible sound because of it, then why does everyone like and enjoy listening to music, including me with the Diazas in place?

I can totally understand if the Diazas don't work for you in your wonderful systems (seriously wonderful systems...I get that) or in other systems that you have heard but I can't understand how you can say that Diazas kill the sound in systems that you have not personally heard and again not via videos but in room listening.

 

[PeterA]

Playing with another cart on another table will also help to check

Good God Bonzo. You are too funny. This would be great, but the poor man has a young boy, another on the way, work to do to support all of this. I feel for the man.

On the other hand, this thread is gold on WBF. We all love it and are learning so much. Seamless education and fun across the continents.

 

[PeterA]

Which is the exact pressing?

MS 6717
CMS 6717
AMS 6717
BRG 72354
SBRG 72354

Two-eye, Blue label?

Tim, from the first frames of video #1, it looks like this is the blue label. My guess is stereo version, UK 1965, SBRG 72354, but I would like confirmation from Tang.

 

[adyc]

I am hearing two different track agains. The daiza track seems fill the room up more while losing on musicality.

The first video wins hand down. No question about it. Much more dynamics. Second video much more constricted. Dynamics is the strength of vdH Master. That’s why I like this cartridge so much. Second video seems lost all the dynamics of vdH Master.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Not for the differences we’re talking about, it’s fundamentally wrong and the same issues and coloration are consistent in every video.
david

David I wanted to ask you this included in my previous post, but was cut off by a customer walking in. Just to be clear, I love tweaking and voicing, and from time to time I introduce colouration in my system on purpose. Its very easy to do, although I prefer to introduce it into my room acoustics rather then my equipment. For example from time to time I tune the materials used on the first reflection points on the sidewalls with various flavours of wood. I have included frequency response measurements of various types of wood below. This is the material response from being subjected to a frequency sweep from 100 to 10.000Hz from a speaker mounted at a 2" distance from the board.
Sp1 and Sp2 are 2 variants of Sitka Spruce, He is Hemlock, Map is Maple, Mah is Mahogany, Mat is Matoa, Acryl is Acrylic Resin.



Now this is all obvious, when hit by soundwaves the reflection will either not change, be amplified, or damped causing the sound Frequency Response to be modified.

Now suppose we use it as a material for a tonearm or a cartridge, or even turntable material, it would be very feasible it will modulate the cartridge operation by translating its vibration into an electrical signal . Would you agree to that?

Next, how do you propose it does this when used as a platform underneath, say a preamplifier made out of a metal chassis with circuit boards? How does it modulate the sound? And why would you prefer to use Maple or another hardwood for that with very obvious resonance modes? (colouration)? Is this, in your opinion, a way to add natural material resonance to the sound? Or are you doing it to introduce a degree of isolation by means of a deliberate surface to surface impedance mismatch for which there are obvious better choices?

 

[ALF]

Hi David, thank you for your reply. We are not looking for alternative materials, but I am interested in your experiences. Let me take the opportunity to explain why. Most of what I'm about to write is known to you, so do not consider this to be directly addressed to you, it may however be interesting to others.

We started using panzerholz about 2.5 years ago to solve address an issue we found when we started modifying the Table Stable active platforms. The issue was these active platforms "isolate" up to 200Hz, in order to do that the feedback circuit measures up to 2000Hz to account for harmonics, as a 200Hz resonance will have harmonics at 400Hz, 600Hz, 800Hz etc. They are fitted with an aluminium top platter sandwiched to a steel frame which causes no issues below 2000Hz. However Aluminium is very resonant above 2000Hz. It's resonance spectrum does not complement any type of musical instrument behaviour so we consider this an undesirable trait.

For painting a complete picture, material resonant behaviour is what makes musical instruments function. In stringed instrument, like a Violin or a guitar, the sound radiation source is mainly a top plate, in pianos it's a soundboard. The strings excite the natural resonances of the top plate/soundboard which are usually made out of wood. The wood provides a dual function, amplification, as it will amplify at its resonance frequencies, and damping, as it will damp some the high frequency resonance of the strings. Spruce is most often used as a soundboard material as it has low density and low internal friction (damping). Maple has higher density and higher internal friction, usually only used to construct the casing. Engineered woods can have even higher density and internal friction. Interestingly one of the applications of Panzerholz is to serve as the frame on which soundboards can be mounted in grand pianos.

View attachment 58937

So we tried a lot of materials, a whole range of wood types, the highest damping woods however came with strong resonance modes in the midrange, both upsetting the Table Stable feedback circuitry and obviously colouring the sound. Bamboo plywood was the best compromise between low midrange colouration and damping aluminium resonance as far as natural wood goes. Composite Bamboo did a bit better, but still not well enough. Then we tried a whole range of high damping composite materials, stones and artificial stones with varying results and finally ended up trying Panzerholz which did the best job by far. We ended up with replacing the stock 6mm aluminium top cover with a 10mm one and sandwiching it with 10mm Panzerholz.

Later on we discovered placing the Table Stable on top of a 40mm board of Panzerholz and adding another on top improved performance even more. Then we got enquiries from customers who wanted to try Panzerholz boards stand alone, so we shipped a bunch out, received feedback claiming good potential, incredible bass, significant increases in clarity but a bit of a "hard quality" to the upper midrange/lower highs, some upper midrange smearing and we should do something with it. So we did, we discovered there where some small modes in the range centered around 3K, we moved those to over 20K by machining all sorts of patterns into the Panzerholz, ended up with the current design as it has no repeatable distances across the board, think diffusion without repeating distances for a sound room. This took care of the upper midrange modes and the associated smearing. Then we had to address the hard quality to the upper midrange/lower highs.This had us baffled for a long time until a conversation with Table Stable introduced the concept of micro oscillations to us. Everything oscillates. Even 2 surfaces, bolted rigidly together, are subject to micro oscillations between them. This is for example what can loosen bolts over time. Even large masses are subject to this. You can move very heavy objects with minimal force if the surface beneath it vibrates. Another example, Tiny Multi Layer Ceramic Capacitors can vibrate significantly when exposed to AC voltages, they can even break off the PCB over time, as they actually cause PCBs to slightly warp under the vibrations they emit. Guess why nobody likes to use those in Hi-Fi.

View attachment 58938
The upper midrange/lower highs harshness was the whole board, with appliance on top, literally bouncing on the floor. An easy way out is using compliant footers, like rubber. But these have a side effect. They create a spring-mass system, the frequency response of this is the lower range passes through, up till the resonance frequency of the system where it amplifies (!), after which it starts damping. The amount of damping defines the amplitude of the resonance peak. This is NOT a neutral Frequency response:

View attachment 58939

If the compliant medium (rubber) is stiff, this can be way up the frequency range, up into the midrange for example. So we came up with the not rigidly mounted footer system damped by foam. Micro oscillations are damped and it has no resonance peak.

Now I've been writing the foams affect the high frequency damping. That is actually a gross oversimplification, if you remove any of those, you start introducing a degree of micro oscillations. That sounds wrong, but it isn't really, as it is just a way of voicing. Ultimately voicing is all about managing resonances. You introduce them in all kinds of flavours, like seasoning in cooking, a bit of spruce here, a little bit of maple there, maybe add a touch of copper, or maybe your dish needs a hint of silver?

Bottom line, the Daiza is virtually neutral. But do you want it to be neutral? Or do you want to use it to add some flavour?

...game, set, match

Cheers!
ALF

 

[microstrip]

It's important that the volume level is equal in both demos.

Not only volume, Bob. Unless these videos are carried in the same objective conditions they are meaningless and misleading. The system and technique being used for the recording is inadequate for comparisons, but surely nice for entertainment. The Daiza action is being misrepresented is these videos soundtracks. However one good thing of this thread is that it is forcing me to buy one Daiza to put under the Extreme, my curiosity won ...

 

[Taiko Audio]

I have found the cause for the unexplainable difference between the 2 videos. The first one (CMS) was recorded by a Samsung S9, 7 months ago, the second (Daiza) by a Samsung S10, today. Can you confirm this Tang?

Quite a few complaints on the web about the S10 recording quality, also from a review:

Unfortunately, the S10 is lacking in recording volume, with by far the lowest Volume sub-score (45) of the devices we have tested so far. There is also some pumping (artificial volume increases and decreases often related to compression) at high volumes. But in short, if you can live with quiet recordings, the S10 is an excellent option.

Edit: No need to confirm, I just did a forum search and it seems you were still using a Samsung S9 2 months after the recording was made. Apparently disabling the Bixby assistant may partially fix some recording quality issues with the S10.

 

[NorthStar]

Not only volume, Bob. Unless these videos are carried in the same objective conditions they are meaningless and misleading. The system and technique being used for the recording is inadequate for comparisons, but surely nice for entertainment. The Daiza action is being misrepresented is these videos soundtracks. However one good thing of this thread is that it is forcing me to buy one Daiza to put under the Extreme, my curiosity won ...

This is what's best audio forum Francisco, so I know that...Tango's entertaining thread.
I like your guts...buying one Daiza...and check for yourself in the comfort of your own music listening room. And may I suggest you try a Dereneville tangential linear tonearm in your next move...before life takes you away from angels.

I'm here to be entertained, and I got that in spades with Tango's videos.
He's the only one here pushing the boundaries of advanced audiophile explorations.

This is a discussion about all our findings and evaluations of his musical YouTube videos.
Plus everything else he shares with us...in words and in music.
Someone had to do it for the sake of sharing to a wider audience who cannot afford to visit him @ home. I'm very grateful for the time he puts in this awesome objective. There is no greater gift in life than sharing our passion for the things we love...music and all.

There are various approaches, his I like a lot.

 

[NorthStar]

As for the specific record, Master Tang can correct me here...if I'm in the right direction or not ...
? https://www.discogs.com/Isaac-Stern...ee-Pictures-of-Chassidic-Life/release/9365954

 

[Folsom]

Which is the exact pressing?

MS 6717
CMS 6717
AMS 6717
BRG 72354
SBRG 72354

Two-eye, Blue label?

SBRG 72354 , which is the link I sent. The information is at the top. You're looking at the stuff below that are alternatives. Here's a link direct to buy one.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And may I suggest you try a Dereneville tangential linear tonearm in your next move... (...)

You are reading my mind Bob - if it was not for the fact that vinyl is only about 5% of my listening time (and the cost , surely) the Dereneville would already have landed in my system. It is the only tonearm that really fascinates me, it looks like a tonearm done right. The same way the Studer A80 or the Extreme does ... WBF is really a dangerous place!

 

[tima]

SBRG 72354 , which is the link I sent. The information is at the top. You're looking at the stuff below that are alternatives. Here's a link direct to buy one.

Unfortunately the forum software does not give much indication of the existence of links in posts. I don't read with the cursor passing it over every word, like some read with a finger pointing at the word.

My suggestion is to put an underline on linked word or words.
And change the forum default to underline links. Reliance on some visual contrast does not work for a host of reasons.

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/9365954?ev=rb

 

[Folsom]

Hm I never thought about that, I see them and don't think about it. Sorry.

 

[NorthStar]

Unfortunately the forum software does not give much indication of the existence of links in posts. I don't read with the cursor passing it over every word, like some read with a finger pointing at the word.

My suggestion is to put an underline on linked word or words.
And change the forum default to underline links. Reliance on some visual contrast does not work for a host of reasons.

I posted the link @ the top of post #2,072

All is needed now is Tango's official confirmation. Maybe it's not the right specific record, I just don't know for certain...he does. I simply did my best with the record's picture cover he included in his first video.

 

[Folsom]

Jesus Christ. I have the exact album and it's like I'm not even posting. WTF Bob.

 

[Tango]

I may be the only one who doesn't know, so pardon my ask to catch up:

What is the Ngun album? Catalog number? Thanks.

Despite my cheap desktop speakers, the difference between the two videos was obvious; I was quite surprised at the degree.

It is saturday here today. Monday when I get back to my office I will look up for you.

I cannot pay much time on wbf when I am at home with my wife and kid.

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

Good God Bonzo. You are too funny. This would be great, but the poor man has a young boy, another on the way, work to do to support all of this. I feel for the man.

On the other hand, this thread is gold on WBF. We all love it and are learning so much. Seamless education and fun across the continents.

Your argument is circular. He listens at the "work to do to support all this"