On the subject of tweaks!

[ddk]

I sold two complete systems this weekend because of the sound in my systems, with all components/sources on Diazas.

To each his own.

I and my MANY visitors LOVE the sound of that my systems produce with Diazas installed. I have not had ONE person discuss that maybe the sound was this or that. Everyone just says it sounds amazing to the point that they pull out their wallets.

Are you saying that you can’t sell your equipment, hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more in value without a piece of tuning plywood stuck under them Bob ? Are they all that badly in need of that piece of plywood to sing?

david

 

[Rhapsody]

David,

Rather than discussing this over and over and over why not visit my place or send someone that you trust to visit my place and have a listen and tell me if the sound I am making with Diazas under everything kills the sound?

Are you saying that you can’t sell your equipment, hundreds of thousands of dollars or more in value without a piece of tuning plywood stuck under them Bob ? Are they all that badly in need of a piece of plywood to sing?

david

I was able to sell many systems prior to having Diazas installed but I am very familiar with the sound that I was producing. It was pretty good, but NOT great. I have verified this with about 5 people that have listened to my systems throughout the years.

Since the Diazas were installed every person that was familiar with the sound that was produced at Rhapsody has confirmed that my sound since the Diazas AND the Extreme were installed the SQ has LEAPED to a completely different level.

I have no idea about comparing phone videos to verify the sound and to be up front, not once since I installed the Diazas have I had someone ask to listen to "ancient instrument recordings" or special versions of recordings with piano only or violin only to see if an instrument sounded more or less woody.

Out of 50 visitors since installing the Diazas, with everyone of them picking their own tunes to listen to, there has been a mix of modern pop, classical, rap, old jazz, new age, new jazz, 60's/70's 80's rock, 80's disco. This is what my customers and visitors listen to and and I can't think of one person that said it doesn't sound quite right.

Regarding SQ they universally have literally been amazed, which in turn has amazed me. I never had this type of universal response when listening to the systems at Rhapsody prior to the Diazas AND Extreme installation.

I am only reporting what I have experienced not what is theoretical or what I think.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Well David,

There are not many agreeing with your evaluation. I have no doubt of your personal experiences with the material. It's a matter of application / implementation.

Now the taker of the videos describe their effect when used with his ML3s this way:

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

I am an open minded guy and I am interested in investigating by what means this usage may lead to an unnatural rendering of Piano harmonics. Therefor I have ordered a whole range of woods from a violin / guitar builder with which I'm going to run some experiments. This is shipping to me today, but it may take some time before I will have time to play around with this.

To the subject of video recording, it seems quite clear that this is subject to quite some error. For that I have ordered this recorder with which I will run some experiments too relative to phone recordings to evaluate the impact of phone microphone input processing / dynamic limiting / compression. I am also interested in difference in spectrum analysis of sound recordings as there may be differences there which are not measurable by other means.

 

[tima]

A mass spring system has its own resonance, when its resonance frequency is exited, it will start amplifying that frequency and starts ringing.

I thought this is true of every material.

The goal of the Daiza is not to alter the sound, it is to provide a minimal resonant surface on which to place your component.

There is no doubt physical changes occur. The debate is indeed in how it affects the sound.

Please forgive me, I've never used a Daiza, I mean no disrespect, but this sounds like double-talk.

If the Daiza fails to meet its goal, that is, it does alter the sound - music sounds differently with it in place versus not in place - does that mean it is not operating as designed or defective?

 

[Taiko Audio]

I thought this is true of every material.

It is!

Please forgive me, I've never used a Daiza, I mean no disrespect, but this sounds like double-talk.

If the Daiza fails to meet its goal, that is, it does alter the sound - music sounds differently with it in place versus not in place - does that mean it is not operating as designed or defective?

It is operating exactly as designed. I think we are somewhat unique in modifying its properties without sandwiching it with other materials like Artesania does in their new Organic series for example. There's a thread on it on WBF here :

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-artesania-audio-”the-absolute”-line.25456/

They combine Panzerholz with Krion, which is a type of artificial stone: https://www.krion.com/en/
We have played around with it as well, it has very interesting properties but when used with the Daiza it would considerably increase its cost, and it creates a different product. 1 on 1 Panzerholz performs better, but again, implementation is everything. We used Krion amongst others for our first Tana modifications.

 

[microstrip]

(...) To the subject of video recording, it seems quite clear that this is subject to quite some error. For that I have ordered this recorder with which I will run some experiments too relative to phone recordings to evaluate the impact of phone microphone input processing / dynamic limiting / compression. I am also interested in difference in spectrum analysis of sound recordings as there may be differences there which are not measurable by other means.

IMHO introducing the complexity of recording with microphones in audio forum debates is just bringing one more uncontrolled variable to the problem. Do you expect that the air of the room will work as a decorrelator, allowing us to see differences we are not able to detect in electrical signals?

The need for very controlled conditions is the real reason why there is so little subjective scientific work in the high end. Although the subject is very interesting, no one is interested in spending the needed resources and time for such subject. The intrinsically hyperbolic subjective nature of stereo sound reproduction is an unsurmountable obstacle - BTW, do you see yourself making an Extreme for 5.1 sound reproduction?

 

[ddk]

Well David,

There are not many agreeing with your evaluation. I have no doubt of your personal experiences with the material. It's a matter of application / implementation.

Now the taker of the videos describe their effect when used with his ML3s this way:



I am an open minded guy and I am interested in investigating by what means this usage may lead to an unnatural rendering of Piano harmonics. Therefor I have ordered a whole range of woods from a violin / guitar builder with which I'm going to run some experiments. This is shipping to me today, but it may take some time before I will have time to play around with this.

To the subject of video recording, it seems quite clear that this is subject to quite some error. For that I have ordered this recorder with which I will run some experiments too relative to phone recordings to evaluate the impact of phone microphone input processing / dynamic limiting / compression. I am also interested in difference in spectrum analysis of sound recordings as there may be differences there which are not measurable by other means.


View attachment 59306

You should post what @adyc’s complete commentary with final conclusions .
In all honesty I didn’t move the posts from the other thread to continue circular back and forth between you & I, we’ve both made our positions very clear regarding Daiza. I simply wanted to have them here where they belong.

Table Stable on the other hand hasn’t been discussed in terms of its technology and its contrarian effects on turntables. I don’t want to fray from turntables because arguing about it’s effects on electronics will end up alongside panzerholz, nowhere.

david

 

[Taiko Audio]

IMHO introducing the complexity of recording with microphones in audio forum debates is just bringing one more uncontrolled variable to the problem. Do you expect that the air of the room will work as a decorrelator, allowing us to see differences we are not able to detect in electrical signals?

The need for very controlled conditions is the real reason why there is so little subjective scientific work in the high end. Although the subject is very interesting, no one is interested in spending the needed resources and time for such subject. The intrinsically hyperbolic subjective nature of stereo sound reproduction is an unsurmountable obstacle - BTW, do you see yourself making an Extreme for 5.1 sound reproduction?

I'm actually mainly interested in it for the following reason: We don't measure how a system behaves in the presence of a continuous musical signal in a room, and if we can measure the impact of say a platform or footers on this. Your frequency analysis of the videos is 100% responsible for this experiment

 

[microstrip]

(...) Table Stable on the other hand hasn’t been discussed in terms of its technology and its contrarian effects on turntables. I don’t want to fray from turntables because arguing about it’s effects on electronics will end up alongside panzerholz, nowhere.

david

There is little to discuss in general considering active tables and turntables - although there is a systematic on the active tables, there is such variation in turntable designs and operational conditions that nothing can't be generalized. At best we can try to understand some particular pairings.

BTW, just for curiosity I have been an user of of active tables in moving laboratory equipment - force atomic microscopes and Mossbauer spectrometers.

 

[Rhapsody]

Another comment from the "cheap seats"- I don't have any idea what putting a piece of raw panzerholz and it would depend on the type, as there are many variations, ie, birch, beech etc., but, If I had to "guess" which is what people that have not heard Daizas are doing vs. actually hearing them and then coming to their conclusions, I would "guess" that it might "kill" or deaden the sound.

I firmly believe that the footers AND the styrofoam inserts and the milling of the Diazas are key factors in how they work and the positive imho effect they have on the sound.

In the types of music that I and my visitors listen to their is a definitive alive quality to the sound. I put on a track for a couple that visited Saturday night on a pair of speakers that they had never heard. The Ms. looked at her husband immediately and said "It sounds live". You don't just come out with that type of comment if the sound is dead sounding.

 

[Taiko Audio]

You should post what @adyc’s complete commentary with final conclusions .
In all honesty I didn’t move the posts from the other thread to continue circular back and forth between you & I, we’ve both made our positions very clear regarding Daiza. I simply wanted to have them here where they belong.

Table Stable on the other hand hasn’t been discussed in terms of its technology and its contrarian effects on turntables. I don’t want to fray from turntables because arguing about it’s effects on electronics will end up alongside panzerholz, nowhere.

david

David,

The Tablestable is not designed to have a moving or heavily vibrating object placed on top. It can only adjust for that to some extend. How this turns out sonically is up to its user to decide. Afaik we have only supplied 2 of these to turntable owners. In fact we did not even supply them, they where already using them, we only modified them and both are happy with the result. It is not up to us as manufacturers to decide if our clients like our products. Of course we are fully entitled to express our opinion. Application is everything. It's quite obvious the Tablestable will not work with every turntable, in fact it probably won't work with the majority of turntables. Along similar lines, the Daiza won't work as intended by placing components on it with rubber footers.

 

[microstrip]

I'm actually mainly interested in it for the following reason: We don't measure how a system behaves in the presence of a continuous musical signal in a room, and if we can measure the impact of say a platform or footers on this. Your frequency analysis of the videos is 100% responsible for this experiment

My measurements aimed to show how inadequate recording with a microphone can be. For your specific purpose I would just record the output of the preamplfier or the tape out signal using a decent USB sound card and particularly avoid such type of hand held equipment.

 

[Taiko Audio]

My measurements aimed to show how inadequate recording with a microphone can be. For your specific purpose I would just record the output of the preamplfier or the tape out signal using a decent USB sound card and particularly avoid such type of hand held equipment.

I agree but that does not show conclusive differences. Although I am about to adopt a different measurement protocol for which I just bought a specific probe to measure the output at the speaker binding posts aswell, stay tuned for that

I am however also interested in to what extend a cell phone camera applies compression and dynamic limiting to the input on its microphone. And how that translates into audible differences in the videos. For example increased dynamics may hit internal limiting and the video may actually sound less dynamic. There is however even more to this as I'm also interested in recording techniques in general, effects of different types of editing on recordings etc. This is an evolving project after our visit to Mike Lavigne a while ago. If you'd like I can send you some unedited direct transfers from master tape. They sound "interesting"

 

[Rhapsody]

I had another guy come in yesterday morning to see a CMS amp stand. As soon as he saw it he said it was too big. I had a pair of 2 day new speakers breaking in and running them with a Devialet 220 so I can run 24/7 for a week easily -he said WOW, what are those? I said they are new and need a week to break in. I said sit down and have a quick listen and I put on a Qobuz track. He listened for 30 seconds and then said he had to go and pick up his son at a class.

Last night, he texted me, gave me his email and said send me an invoice for those speakers. PEOPLE don't do this stuff if they hear dead sound.

 

[ddk]

I had another guy come in yesterday morning to see a CMS amp stand. As soon as he saw it he said it was too big. I had a pair of 2 day new speakers breaking in and running them with a Devialet 220 so I can run 24/7 for a week easily -he said WOW, what are those? I said they are new and need a week to break in. I said sit down and have a quick listen and I put on a Qobuz track. He listened for 30 seconds and then said he had to go and pick up his son at a class.

Last night, he texted me, gave me his email and said send me an invoice for those speakers. PEOPLE don't do this stuff if they hear dead sound.

Plenty of poor sounding mega dollar systems out there to prove otherwise, people do make mistakes. Even costly ones and often more than once in this hobby.

Edit- Not commenting on your sound one way or another Bob, just on people’s purchases.
david

 

[Rhapsody]

Agree 100% but I honestly do not believe that is what is happening and what I am experiencing.

 

[Kingsrule]

A question if I may ( I normally would try everything myself but these things are heavy and a pain to move. Hopefully those with some experience can provide some direction......)

I have one stock Herzan TS140 on top of a custom made Herzan rack

Where would the TS 140 be utilized best:

With the MSB dac on it (that's what I'm doing now)
With the MSB mono power bases stacked on it
With the Extreme on it

 

[Rhapsody]

A question if I may ( I normally would try everything myself but these things are heavy and a pain to move. Hopefully those with some experience can provide some direction......)

I have one stock Herzan TS140 on top of a custom made Herzan rack

Where would the TS 140 be utilized best:

With the MSB dac on it (that's what I'm doing now)
With the MSB mono power bases stacked on it
With the Extreme on it

I have no idea, but my opinion is that regardless of opinions, that unless you tried all of the different options there is no way of really knowing. I understand that everything is HEAVY and a pita. It probably will sound different in all scenarios and your personal preference would be the deciding factor.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A question if I may ( I normally would try everything myself but these things are heavy and a pain to move. Hopefully those with some experience can provide some direction......)

I have one stock Herzan TS140 on top of a custom made Herzan rack

Where would the TS 140 be utilized best:

With the MSB dac on it (that's what I'm doing now)
With the MSB mono power bases stacked on it
With the Extreme on it

My best guess is as you are using it right now, so only the MSB dac on it. Stacking is not optimal on a Herzan and we already know it works very well with the msb dac, it will probably help those sensitive clocks more then it will help the Extreme. But as Bob said, only one way to know for sure!

 

[Folsom]

IMHO introducing the complexity of recording with microphones in audio forum debates is just bringing one more uncontrolled variable to the problem. Do you expect that the air of the room will work as a decorrelator, allowing us to see differences we are not able to detect in electrical signals?

You have to measure certain things within a time window because of that.