Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Folsom]

Ok then. This? Rhapsody live, everything on Daiza:

And a real live snippet, also taken in New York, as a phone recording quality reference:

I'm not sure if you want a comparison between the two? The live is way better, but recording stereos isn't exactly the best thing ever, it's just something. I don't know the album at all, so I can't say if it usually sounds like that or not. I'm not sure how subdued different parts of the song are suppose to be.

 

[Folsom]

Maybe you are right, but I believe that you would have to have been in the room where that was recording was made to know if the recording is accurate. Piano recordings as you know can be tricky to record.

As that piano might sound wrong to you, I did not get that feeling that it sounded wrong, I thought it was very clear. I did start playing piano when I was 4 years old studying from my Aunt who was a Julliard grad and concert pianist.

Right, I'm just saying what I hear on the video, not whether I think being there was similar. I wasn't there.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Tang,

You are the only one that hear the sound of your system with or without Daiza without being coloured by the phone. Can you comment that there is no loss of harmonics or dynamics using Daiza? I know that you have made some comments before. But in view of so much discussions, can you let us know your observations again?

To me, there is slight loss of dynamics or change of tonal balance using Daiza even using the foams. To be fair, I bought Daiza not to be used under my pre or power amps. It happens that while experimenting with different footers with David, I asked David's observations to use Daiza under my preamp. He also did criticize the use of
SYMPOSIUM Precision SuperCouplers and Stacore CLD footers under my pre and power. So I believe David is not out to get anyone. His observations are sincere and fair.

Ah good they arrived. How long have they been in now?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Right, I'm just saying what I hear on the video, not whether I think being there was similar. I wasn't there.

For reference, the Munich videos were made with an Iphone 8 plus, the New York videos with an Iphone Xs max. The only observation I made so far is it cuts out the bass when the recording volume is high. I think you can hear it in the Munich videos, the second one taken back in the room sounds much fuller. On my Iphone that is

 

[adyc]

Ah good they arrived. How long have they been in now?

Just one or two days. I bought Daiza to be used under Extreme server I am considering. Since you listened to both Daiza and Extreme together, I do trust your opinions on the benefits of Daiza under Extreme server. I also believe and respect other users finding audio benefits of using Daiza under their analogue and digital equipment.

It is just my belief no one product fits all.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Just one or two days. I bought Daiza to be used under Extreme server I am considering. Since you listened to both Daiza and Extreme together, I do trust your opinions on the benefits of Daiza under Extreme server. I also believe and respect other users finding audio benefits of using Daiza under analogue and digital equipment.

Ok if you can be a bit more patient it will get better.

Yes we did sell the Daizas mainly for using digital equipment, table stable (Tana), servers and dacs. We believe one of the culprits of “digital” sound is chassis ringing. It wreaks havoc on clock phase noise amongst others. This does not mean it won’t work with other equipment, the only way to know, as always, is to try...

 

[Folsom]

Here's an iPhone XS Max I just did, of a mediocre recording that makes some things sound weird I think because of splash between the two pianos being recorded near each other. The iPhones really sound bad IMO.

 

[Tango]

Hi Tang,

You are the only one that hear the sound of your system with or without Daiza without being coloured by the phone. Can you comment that there is no loss of harmonics or dynamics using Daiza? I know that you have made some comments before. But in view of so much discussions, can you let us know your observations again?

To me, there is slight loss of dynamics or change of tonal balance using Daiza even using the foams. To be fair, I bought Daiza not to be used under my pre or power amps. It happens that while experimenting with different footers with David, I asked David's observations to use Daiza under my preamp. He also did criticize the use of
SYMPOSIUM Precision SuperCouplers and Stacore CLD footers under my pre and power. So I believe David is not out to get anyone. His observations are sincere and fair.

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Rhapsody]

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hi Tang,

I agree with all that you say.

Keep in mind, I don't have a set reference system. I have 20 sets of speakers and the same amount of electronics, changing daily in what we literally call "the laboratory". I really don't have any reference worth noting.

I have not paid attention to the level of the piano or really any instrument sounding a certain way to the level you all normally do. Our references are different.

Sure I want instruments to sound real, but I live for a 3D holographic soundstage with layered instruments and space around each instrument and really present details, WAY back in the soundstage, with dynamics and room pressurization that give me the sensation as close to sitting in front of a live group, orchestra or whatever as possible. For me, I get really close to feeling like the a quartet is "in the room". That is all that I ask for.

I don't get ANY of what I work at daily to attain sonically regarding in room listening from a phone/YT video. It's such a different thing- phone video vs. in room.

You guys are all just a lot more focused and I'm not saying you shouldn't be, I love it, it's great. I really get it, I'm just different.

I would like to hear a top vinyl recording that you endorse as delivering the proper amount of woodishness in one of my sets up and I will tell you if I feel that it is lacking in enough harmonic or whatever you call it. It very well might be, but I would only know after I heard it, not thought about it or saw/heard it on a phone video. I can tell much more in room vs. phone video.

I will dig some vinyl out, although I can give my impressions, I will wait until someone from WBF comes wandering in for a visit and I will play it for them and let them report. More meaningful.

In the last 100 visitors that I've had over the last year, I don't think that I got into a discussion about tonality and harmonics. It's so prevalent here, which I enjoy, BUT I never encounter it in my daily audio universe. Go figure

 

[Folsom]

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

I’m not sure harmonics is the word choice I would use (yet), but yes I heard same thing with piano.

The Munich video has a similarity.

 

[Hieukm]

Bonzo, you have visited most of the people here and also have access to many phone clip of their system. Is there a particular system type(horn,panel) or room(big, small) where the phone clip actually misleading of what happening in room? or should there be a general correlation between phone clip and real life system??

 

[awsmone]

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang
this is very important observation and nothing to do with Daiza or cms etc

many people think piano is all tinkle tinkle

but that’s just the treble
the midrange is very complex colours and then there is the woody cabinet sound of the bass strings each zone has different colours and way the string behaves as there are different numbersof strings in different section per note

if you have too dominant treble harmonics then the brain doesn’t seem to lock into these subtle colours of the instrument

i listened to the Kreisler praeludium recording you played at home on my system maybe 50 times
i can reproduce the sound: You got at home on mine as I wind up these treble harmonics the woody growl of the violin disappears until it is gone
its very exciting and almost holographic sounding and sounds wonderful, but it sounds nothing like a real violin

listen to this YouTube about violins

note at around 2:40 what this sounds like high on the finger board this is a very fine delicate sound, not fat with harmonic overtones, and some wood is still there with resin and bow as well....

 

[bonzo75]

But Ked, that room is GIGANTIC and with moderate music as what the video that was just posted I disagree that it sounds dead. I do think that when you push the Kawero Classics in that room it just doesn't work because the speaker is too small for the monster sized room.

Last year Kaiser had their new big speaker there but the Kaguras did not drive the speaker sufficiently again due to the size of the room.

My feeling on Kaiser in that room is not a good barometer of the Kaiser and Kondo sound, but that's just my sense of it.

I agree. I mentioned the Munich experience and qualified that my impression was restricted to only Munich, because the video is from Munich. So the room the video relates to is totally dead, I played regular classical LPs of mine there and was appalled at the lack of drive. They need different amps in there

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, you have visited most of the people here and also have access to many phone clip of their system. Is there a particular system type(horn,panel) or room(big, small) where the phone clip actually misleading of what happening in room? or should there be a general correlation between phone clip and real life system??

Yes videos can be misleading. What I do is take a sample of some videos, then listen to them a day or two after I get back from my trip to check if they make the same impression. Sometimes they don't, sometimes they do. I post those which I think reflect what I heard. My Munich 2019 videos are quite an accurate representation of what I heard there, as is my Avalon/Soulution /brinkmann report.

I started on this video thing only this Munich though, not before. I am trying to think of a pattern where they work and don't, but not sure of that myself yet.

Which is why I made one post that Tang should listen to his own videos, and confirm to us where it matches his in room experience and where it doesn't. Which he then did.

Certain things are more apparent than others on video. Also consistency, like in Tang's case because he posts many, helps. But you have to close the feedback loop with the guy in the room based on a video

 

[Tango]

Which is the exact pressing?

MS 6717
CMS 6717
AMS 6717
BRG 72354
SBRG 72354

Two-eye, Blue label?

This one I have. SBRG 72354

 

[Blue58]

Bob said
”Sure I want instruments to sound real, but I live for a 3D holographic soundstage with layered instruments and space around each instrument and really present details, WAY back in the soundstage, with dynamics and room pressurization that give me the sensation as close to sitting in front of a live group, orchestra or whatever as possible. For me, I get really close to feeling like the a quartet is "in the room". That is all that I ask for.“

And I couldn’t agree more and this is what I hear in my room with the Daiza in place. Details way back in the soundstage that give the allusion of live performers. I watched Cécile McLorin Savant and Sullivan Fortner at the Barbican the other night, 8 rows back centre, and thrilled to say the presentation was So damn close to what I hear at home but with an even closer perspective, 1st row.

I love what the Daiza are doing in my system.

cheers
Blue58

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear adyc,

Here is my impression when I first listened to ML3 on Daiza on CMS. Bob's description below is spot on.

The overall sound got "cleaned up" allowing much greater transparency for small details way back deep into the soundstage. It also allowed me to hear the harmonics coming off of strings more clearly. Just the right amount to not lose the life of the music. The bass got clearer and I was able to observe differences in bass notes more clearly on a a stand up acoustic bass.

I admit I was staggered by the sound. I said before I heard Gian's CH ability to reveal deep back into the stage and I was jealous of him for that. This Daiza gave me that plus the incredible drive and presence of the Lamm. Piano became very distinct...vibration of strings is very clearly obvious. Dynamic was the same as before the Daiza. BUT...what bonzo and David brought me to attention was correct. The piano sounded exciting but it did not sound real. I then listened more different records on piano. They all have pretty much the same obvious stringy steely sound as if the piano housing is very inert and not made of wood. I could hear it vibrates within the housing better than ever and I could feel the dimension inside the housing but the piano has no harmonic of wood. The sound leaned more toward electric guitar string vibrating. So what Bob described of the sound is not wrong. But it is obvious we hold different meaning of natural sound of acoustic instrument. Bob does not think he loses harmonic. But I, Bonzo, ddk and possibly Folsom think the harmonic of woody instruments are lost. So, I don't think we hear it differently. It is the interpretation of real live sound of instrument that we seem to hold differently.

Sorry I have to stop writing. I am taking my boy to a hospital for check up. And please Bonzo, don't tell me that Bangkok traffic and the fact I have a driver drive for me is not an excuse for not writing. Will continue when have time.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hi Tang,

I hope nothing serious with your boy. Our 2 year old has been struggling with severe colds his whole life due to enlarged tonsils. They used to just surgically remove them in the past but nowadays they want to wait to see if it resolves itself. It's heart breaking to hear the little guy struggling for air at nights though this is considered to not be a serious condition. That sure does make everything else rather unimportant!

On the topic of the discussion here, when you have time for it, I'm very interested if this applies to both on floor and on CMS. I would suspect the answer to that to be yes.

This is a very significant discovery with some potentially intriguing implications! You'd almost think that my example posted earlier on piano construction applies directly here! The mechanism is interesting, although it could maybe be explained by the microphonic sensitivity of tubes. If the same would apply to say a Server, DAC or SS amplifier the implications are wide reaching. In this case it would be interesting to add some soundboard material to the equation just to see what happens. Footers made out of Sitka Spruce for example. I'm going to see if I can rent/get a Piano in here and will check my stash for instrument grade (long grain) Sitka Spruce, should have something. As sound in wood travels along the length of the fibers (it nearly does not transport at all sideways) we'd need to machine it upright, doable though!

 

[awsmone]

As I said this is very interesting

The Soundboard
The Amplifier of the Sound
The soundboard is a large, thin wooden plate which acts as an amplifier of the sound produced by the vibrating strings – its purpose is to radiate a large volume of sound over a wide frequency range. All stringed instruments have some type of soundboard – most are built directly into the body of the instrument, such as the violin or the harp. These soundboards amplify the sound produced by the bowed string of the violin, or the plucked string of the harp. In the case of the piano, the string begins to vibrate when it is struck by the hammer. As the string vibrates back and forth, it displaces the air, creating sound waves. The string alone, however, has a very small surface area, which means that it cannot displace a large amount of air, making it difficult to hear. When the strings are linked, or coupled, to the soundboard by the means of the bridge, they are able to transmit their vibrations into this large wooden resonator, which is then able to displace a much larger amount of air than the string alone.

The soundboard is not one solid piece of wood, but is made of many smaller planks that are glued together. The wood used for these planks is Sitka spruce – a wood that is lightweight and flexible, yet still very strong. Sitka spruce has a long, straight grain which allows for the quick transmission of sound vibrations. The planks are cut so that the direction of the wood grain runs the vertical length of each plank. The planks used are about ½ an inch thick, and 4 to 6 inches wide. They are glued together edge-to-edge in order to form one large sheet of wood (notice the diagonal planks in the picture at the right). After the glue dries, the large sheet of wood is cut into the proper shape, which must match the shape of the rim precisely. After it has been cut, the soundboard is then planed down to the proper thickness – usually only three-eighths of an inch. The top of the soundboard has a crown, or a slight dome, that curves up towards the strings. The crown allows the strings to set firmly upon the bridge by pushing up against the downward pressure being applied by the strings. The strings are pulled over the bridge at an extremely high tension - so high that over the course of many years, the downbearing force of the strings can cause the soundboard to lose its crown.

on the issue of tonsillectomy

there are two indications

the first is recurrent infections as per the “paradise criteria”

the second is obstructive sleep apnoea

there is an advantage long term in still having tonsils for preventing chest infections

but if a child reach criteria for obstructive sleep apnoea they have long term Learning difficultly if not treated

 

[Rhapsody]

I agree. I mentioned the Munich experience and my impression was restricted to only Munich, because the video is from Munich. So the room the video relates to is totally dead, I played regular classical LPs of mine there and was appalled at the lack of drive. They need different amps in there

It's ironic for me because about 4 or 5 years ago I introduced Kondo to Kaiser. We first showed together at CES probably around 2014 or 2015 I think. It was a larger size hotel room at the Venetian and the Kaguras drove the Kaisers just right. I sold three pair of Kaisers and I think 4 sets of Kaguras from that showing and the following demos at my place over the next year.

THEN Kaiser and Kondo wanted to do Munich. BUT there were no spaces available other than MBL had a gigantic space. Kaiser/Kondo somehow got half of the space from MBL. The problem with that is that that room is enormous. The video does not show how big that room actually is.

It's bittersweet because to many the Kaiser/Kondo room is like walking into hallowed ground and the aesthetics of the room is exquisite imho, but the room is WAY too big for the Kaguras to drive most speakers UNLESS they had a 100db efficient speaker, which they have not had available from Kaiser.

Anyway, this room with videos or in person is probably not a good barometer of anything. Kaiser and Kondo are totally aware of everything that I've just stated, it will be interesting to see what occurs in May.

 

[bonzo75]

I totally agree, and I think 90 percent of Munich rooms are that way, so my comment should be read only in context of that video (Which I did not like either) and of the hifi show room it is shot in and not as a reflection on the equipment as I have no experience with those speakers and haven't tried different amps on them which I would like to before commenting on the speaker directly