One Amigo Visits South East Asia and Hears Some Amazing Systems
- Thread starter Steve williams
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Sorry, not Albert
, but the answer from me is, Yes. All the "harm" done by things such as the microphone falls away when enough things about the sound are done correctly - the subjective experience is as per live, remaining defects notwithstanding. Jim's system is obviously very carefully engineered to reproduce the low bass well, and achieve high SPLs effortlessly - if one is prepared to compromise , and not be fussed so much about low bass, and getting the highest volume levels, then all the rest of the package can be delivered. Subjectively, one is just not quite as close to the orchestra or band, but personally I don't find that a problem ...This is a good pointer to the fact that all the 'information' is on recordings, as is, to deliver a fabulous listening experience - it just requires a good enough package on the delivery side to make it happen ...
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Haha. It was after playing Jim's Wide Band 1st Edition La Fille Mal Gardee that I thought I had to call it a night and I whispered to Jim that before I leave I'd really NEED to hear 1 song of the Brother's Four album - Yesterday, or I won't be able to sleep when I got home.
One cut, I said, but I was practically frozen, glued, welded, if you will, to my sweet spot or the 'emperor's throne, while Steve, Jack and Jim were in the mini conference table at the back. One cut led to the next as I sat frozen, waiting for still the next cut till the the entire side 1 was played. After the end of side 1, Jack or was it Jim asked me, what do you think, Phil? I said, I am SPEECHLESS! I said I want to go home now to recollect my thoughts but Jim sent me the ultimate temptation - now Phil, you can't go home now until you've listened to SIDE 2??? !!! Again, I stood frozen, and went back to my sweet spot. And Jerry, you will have to blame the airline for screwing up the flight of your son, because by the time Side 2 was over, all I remembered was Steve saying, that's the best music we've played all night! I snapped out of my trance and I told the guys that in all my years or decades of listening to this Beatles Songbook, I have only heard the 'throat and chest sounds' coming out of the male singers, but with Jim's system, it's like I can see the 4 dudes' 'body', seated on stools with their guitars. Talk about illusions. It was late for me but I know some of my brain functions were still fine as I do not drink. Now did I read the words 'own promo copy'? Those are welded too in my record rack.
Yes, that's the special pleasure with a system in fine tune - one can "see" the performer, or performers, so clearly; the space they each exist in seems so real, tangible, it mimics how one would hear live people in your room playing beautifully - the term I use is convincing ...I snapped out of my trance and I told the guys that in all my years or decades of listening to this Beatles Songbook, I have only heard the 'throat and chest sounds' coming out of the male singers, but with Jim's system, it's like I can see the 4 dudes' 'body', seated on stools with their guitars. Talk about illusions.
Hi
I am reading this above post with a smile on my face I have been repeating in this forum that authentic reproduction, something that can fool you in a consistent fashion requires power. I was brought to this line of thinking when another great designer Tom Danley mentioned that a simple key jingling had peaks of 120dB at 1 meter !! It became clear to me to reproduce music in a lifelike fashion requires power,lot of it. Reading this post by Albert Von Schweikert another person whose speakers have impressed me, I know that for me the road is high power combined with high efficiency speakers. THere is much more to what Jim's system than power but it is clear that the system realism has a lot to do with the power available and of course the quality of that power. It is a given that the speakers and the room are up to the task too but IMO Power
And Frantz, I'm reading your post with a bit of a smile on my face as I can't help but think you're off base with your comments about power.
Power in high-end audio is much like power in a sports car. For example, the consensus of a just a few friends, and I'm sure more, is that it seems clear the quality of power generated by a 300hp german-made auto is easily superior to that of a 300hp american-made auto.
As with most anything, quality means more than quantity and I've had highly rated 160wpc amp sound that significantly elevated my system's level of musicality significantly than my highly rated 300wpc amp. Surprisingly enough, especially in the deep bass regions. And though the 300wpc amp was no slouch, the level of refinement across the spectrum was rather pleasing.
Years ago I owned a popular 900wpc amp that was trounced in every last category when A/B'ed with an 80wpc Onkyo receiver trounced the 900 wpc amp.
So with these and other experiences I've gotta' disagree wholeheartedly here.
There are so many great systems that have never seen a forum page at all. So there's certainly more than just one!
I don't think it's necessarily wise to say "it is theoretically impossible for a stereo system to "exactly" reproduce any live source, ..." etc, etc. At the stage of technology today, you'd probably be closer to being accurate if you said in reality. But when you say theoretically, you leave little room for potential growth / discoveries. And that just seems a bit closed-minded to me.
In essence when making such a claim implies that the one making the claim:
1. Knows every last real limitation / shortcoming we face including their actual as well as potential sonic compromises and/or harm.
2. Has interviewed and asked every last viable candidate all the right questions and got all the right answers and correctly compiled all the responses.
3. Has or knows somebody who was able to recognize a heretofore serious unknown flaw but lacks the wherewithal to sufficiently address it.
4. Is "omniscient" enough to accurately proclaim that we human beings have reached a pinnacle regarding new discoveries.
I think it also worth mentioning that your claim includes no evidence. Otherwise you wouldn't have labeled your claim as theoretical.
Sorry to be a stickler here as it should be a given that finding such a one qualified to make such statements would be news indeed.
In fact, I'm reminded of a another forum a few years ago where component designer John Curl admitted (several times) that every last one of his designs (and everybody elses' designs) had at least one serious and still unknown flaw. Paraphrased. According to Curl that's at least one yet unknown flaw. IOW, perhaps today that one serious flaw and maybe other serious flaws became recognized and is now being satisfactorily addressed as we type.
Your statement simply cannot hold water. I cannot think of a single encounter where those who truly and humbly dove deep into a subject matter always seemed to be the first to admit the more they know the more they realize how little they really know.
Until then the potential to "get there" remains a possibility and perhaps even a probability. But surely anybody worth their salt will freely admit we're still a long way off the mark.
"A man's physical and mental limitations are infinite." -me
"Convincing" is good, but for me, it describes the whole reproduction and listening experience for a particular system. The term is general and not specific enough to describe this "sense of the musician(s) performing in front of you". For that, I prefer the term, "Presence". I understand, that if it is convincing it also has presence, dynamics and realistic tone, scale, etc.
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Superb point. We, or I, tend to lose perspective when reading these forums and lose sight of the others who are simply, quietly enjoying their music, and systems, in relative anonymity.
Stehno
To each its own .. When I read that 300 hp delivered by a German car is "easily" superior to a 300 hp american-made auto... I can tell we are not looking on the same page. That's all good though ...
I have just spent my evening enjoying this entire (to this point) thread. I can believe what is being said in praising the sound of this ultimate system, given I am getting a more than I expected taste of the symphony experience on very well recorded medium on my own system that includes the Von Schweikert VR55 Aktives (sharing similar cabinet design, rear ambience, and advanced driver and crossover technology) plus the Ultra cabling and a fairly large 38 foot by 28 foot by 10 foot room. See Review here http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...R55-Aktive-Speaker-Review&p=315847#post315847
As I talked to Albert over these last few years it has been such a pleasure to experience his passion to "get everything right" and his joy in designing what has been his penultimate achievement to date in the "equipment and room no object" category. I know that he has a deep commitment to "trickle down" much of the musical satisfaction such a system provides to the less rarefied and more practical for most us prices, and speaker and room sizes.
One aspect that has not been much celebrated here is that Albert's new speakers with proper equipment and recordings can also convey the depths of nuance, timbre, dynamics, and subtlety that exist in the very quietest passage such as the long sustain of a very quiet piano note. And this to me provides as much pleasure as more dynamic fireworks.
As I talked to Albert over these last few years it has been such a pleasure to experience his passion to "get everything right" and his joy in designing what has been his penultimate achievement to date in the "equipment and room no object" category. I know that he has a deep commitment to "trickle down" much of the musical satisfaction such a system provides to the less rarefied and more practical for most us prices, and speaker and room sizes.
One aspect that has not been much celebrated here is that Albert's new speakers with proper equipment and recordings can also convey the depths of nuance, timbre, dynamics, and subtlety that exist in the very quietest passage such as the long sustain of a very quiet piano note. And this to me provides as much pleasure as more dynamic fireworks.
So in your opinion a 40wpc Pass Labs Aleph 0 amp can't hold a musical candle to an 100wpc Sanyo receiver?
Interesting perspective.
The reason those of us that go with big systems is not to play loud but rather to get the advantage of being able to play with less stress on the individual transducers to reach normal sound pressure levels. In Jim's case his system has almost no stress at realistic sound pressure levels. Add a room where you have full wave development at 20 Hz and low RT60 and you get that over the full spectrum. Now this is not to say it will turn crap into gold. This is where Jim's software comes in. Pristine LPs and great tapes of great music recorded well, enough of them where you could play non-stop for maybe two weeks without repeating a track and things get really scary.
Unmentioned by anybody is the heroic efforts that have gone into the power for the room. Not just audiophile stuff but the back room. The AC power supply uses filtration normally used for industrial security printing machines and other devices that require extreme stability at overkill KVA.
The 11s and 111s share the trait that they create coherent pressure waves. The difference is that Jim's pressure wave is so large and enveloping that they extend past field of view. Think I-Max. This is what live music is like that most systems fail at. Now think huge Soundlabs or huge Maggie allowed to breath and without the constraints of running out of gas ever and without the inherent limit of artifacts that show up at the point where the crimped edges from the frames reflect back into the panels at the rare but important peaks/climaxes in classical pieces . As Jerry puts it there are peaks in some material where we've been conditioned to anticipate the inevitable cringe but here and if I may be allowed to brag a bit
There is no magic going on here. It's care for the small signals, consistency throughout the spectrum and low distortion through good basic design and the provision of more than sufficient headroom. Those are the baseline performance parameters. As for tone color that's where Jim can do his salt n peppering to taste by choice of tubes, carts, headblocks, tensioning etc. Of course we all have different tastes and Jim and I have our own preferred "sound", mine being more sloped and Jim being more linear. Our difference however is more in our bass response preference. I prefer slightly looser and softer bass and more of it. Jazz club upright bass feeling as I don't listen to classical music as much as he does. That said either system can be set up accordingly as Steve witnessed in a mater of a couple of minutes to get in the ballpark. This flexibility is what drew us to these speakers. In the early years our purists friends said we were cheating LOL. These days where powered subs and even DSP are now very much accepted we no longer get accused of that!
Very true. That was the one single trait I heard listening to the big Genesis Dragons at the HK dealer last year. A complete sense of ease that was similar to live performance, without the extreme loudness.
Hello Jack,
On Steve's pictures of Jim's system I noticed a Lampizator Golden Gate dac. Do not know what kind of server/computer Jim is using but were you able to listen to the GG? If so, can you let us know how it performed in Jim's system? Thanks.
On Steve's pictures of Jim's system I noticed a Lampizator Golden Gate dac. Do not know what kind of server/computer Jim is using but were you able to listen to the GG? If so, can you let us know how it performed in Jim's system? Thanks.
Stehno
How can we discuss in any meaningful way if this is what you made of what I wrote? Let's drop it and get back to these incredible systems, some of these I expect to hear some day.
It's just another way of saying that a rig can transition from merely being a sound system, to being able to reproduce a musical event to the level of being able to fool people. In some situations it can literally operate like a light switch - when I first got this quality the system would slip back, degrade to conventional audio playback constantly, because I didn't understand enough to be able to control the critical aspects of the system's behaviour.
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