One Amigo Visits South East Asia and Hears Some Amazing Systems
- Thread starter Steve williams
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Welcome, Mr. Von Schweikert! Thank you for the detailed explanation of the design process. As you correctly surmised, the members of WBF are very dedicated music lovers and a great community of people!
Lee
Lee
Hi Albert
Thanks for taking the time not only to join but also to write such an informative update on Jim's speakers. That was very helpful and much appreciated.
FWIW I walked around the speakers many times and had several photos of the rear of the speaker but in existing light without flash the detail was such that I couldn't use them here but I know exactly what you are alluding to .
Also Jim and Jack had visited me about 5-6 years ago while I was living in the SF Bay Area. I knew they were some very serious audiophiles and time didn't prove me wrong.
Albert, I have heard many great systems all over the world, all of which were unique and great in certain ways. Having heard Jim's system I can say without hesitation that IMHO it is the finest sound system I have ever heard in my life not only with respect to the meticulous detail of the build quality of his room with all of its acoustic amendments that either are so well hidden or blend beautifully with the architectural detail. The speakers are a work of art IMO. I took a lot of notes and pictures to recall what I did but the added scope of your 3 year quest to build this one off speaker for Jim added much more than I was aware of. I knew Jim was using the top of the line Master Built cables but I wasn't aware of their build quality or specifications until you mentioned them. Nor was I aware of the reasoning behind driver placement in the main tower.
As for the crossover modules, when I first saw the speakers I thought they were actually speakers he had hidden behind the main tower to listen to as well.
I was curious as to your decision to make the main tower a single 9 foot tower rather than 3 modules which fit together.
In summary Albert after listening to Jim's system especially knowing he wants to recreate the presence of being at the symphony I can say that he has accomplished this as I felt I was a few rows back in the center orchestra. There is nothing like that system anywhere in the world that can to my ears produce sound like I heard that day Albert (which was a 9 hour listening session). I proclaimed here that for my ears Jim's system with be the one against which all others would be judged. I called his system "Unobtainium" as it is a true world class reference
Thanks for your 3 year effort to make Jim's dream a reality as well as your taking time to chronicle much of the fine detail here for WBF readers.
We all look forward to further contributions on your part Albert at WBF as we do have a Von Schweikert sub forum
Thanks for taking the time not only to join but also to write such an informative update on Jim's speakers. That was very helpful and much appreciated.
FWIW I walked around the speakers many times and had several photos of the rear of the speaker but in existing light without flash the detail was such that I couldn't use them here but I know exactly what you are alluding to .
Also Jim and Jack had visited me about 5-6 years ago while I was living in the SF Bay Area. I knew they were some very serious audiophiles and time didn't prove me wrong.
Albert, I have heard many great systems all over the world, all of which were unique and great in certain ways. Having heard Jim's system I can say without hesitation that IMHO it is the finest sound system I have ever heard in my life not only with respect to the meticulous detail of the build quality of his room with all of its acoustic amendments that either are so well hidden or blend beautifully with the architectural detail. The speakers are a work of art IMO. I took a lot of notes and pictures to recall what I did but the added scope of your 3 year quest to build this one off speaker for Jim added much more than I was aware of. I knew Jim was using the top of the line Master Built cables but I wasn't aware of their build quality or specifications until you mentioned them. Nor was I aware of the reasoning behind driver placement in the main tower.
As for the crossover modules, when I first saw the speakers I thought they were actually speakers he had hidden behind the main tower to listen to as well.
I was curious as to your decision to make the main tower a single 9 foot tower rather than 3 modules which fit together.
In summary Albert after listening to Jim's system especially knowing he wants to recreate the presence of being at the symphony I can say that he has accomplished this as I felt I was a few rows back in the center orchestra. There is nothing like that system anywhere in the world that can to my ears produce sound like I heard that day Albert (which was a 9 hour listening session). I proclaimed here that for my ears Jim's system with be the one against which all others would be judged. I called his system "Unobtainium" as it is a true world class reference
Thanks for your 3 year effort to make Jim's dream a reality as well as your taking time to chronicle much of the fine detail here for WBF readers.
We all look forward to further contributions on your part Albert at WBF as we do have a Von Schweikert sub forum
I am sure Jim - I suppose with the help of Jack - built a state of the art system but just that I understand you correctly Steve: are you actually saying/claiming that this system 'fooled' you in such a way that you thought that a real symphony orchestra was performing a few rows in front of you?? As mentioned elsewhere on the WBF I experienced yesterday (once again) a live performance of a symphony orchestra, this time performing Prokofiev's second symphony. Only focussing on just one aspect - the dynamics -: in my view no high end system in the world, how good it might be, is capable - to mention just one example - of reproducing the dynamics of a full orchestra playing in a (fine) hall. But maybe you see things differently?
Hi Albert,
It's a wonderful thing to see patrons and designer sharing a common vision come together to create something unique, thank you for sharing!
I have a couple of questions regarding your "ambience" section, are you using a separate digital hall reverb generator of sorts to add ambience to the main sound or are you using the same signal from the main section and shooting it out of phase from the back?
Since we can't see pictures from the back of the speaker, what do you mean by semi-horn loaded?
david
It's a wonderful thing to see patrons and designer sharing a common vision come together to create something unique, thank you for sharing!
I have a couple of questions regarding your "ambience" section, are you using a separate digital hall reverb generator of sorts to add ambience to the main sound or are you using the same signal from the main section and shooting it out of phase from the back?
Since we can't see pictures from the back of the speaker, what do you mean by semi-horn loaded?
david
I'm pretty certain that that was exactly what I said.
The room is like none I have ever been in
Well Steve, in my view it is physically not possible to recreate the power and dynamics of a full orchestra performing in a music hall through a ('microphoned') recording in a much smaller listening room, notwithstanding how great the latter may be. But I suppose in the end it all comes down to the - subjective - matter of being 'fooled' into a illusion.
And just to be clear on this: in no way I want to give our members the impression that I am criticizing Jim's system (how could I because I have never heard it). My point is: Steve might be 'fooled' into this live illusion easier than I am.
Perhaps Rudolph but I would hazard a guess that if you had your speakers in such a room the same effect could be gleaned. I have never seen or heard a room such as this ever. It's mere size conveys that impression of being at the symphony. His room is probably 3 times the volume of yours. It was easy for me to feel I was in the concert hall
Bear in mind that this room was constructed on a lot adjacent to Jims house that was purchased for just this room. It's scale and grandeur cannot be appreciated without being there and seeing what Jim and his acoustician accomplished this is not a room in ones house that a system is dropped into. It is beyond that.
Bear in mind that this room was constructed on a lot adjacent to Jims house that was purchased for just this room. It's scale and grandeur cannot be appreciated without being there and seeing what Jim and his acoustician accomplished this is not a room in ones house that a system is dropped into. It is beyond that.
Fair enough Steve. And the musical experience you described in this thread is what this hobby (at least for me) is all about: creating the feeling/illusion that you are listening to real musicians performing just for you in your own environment. I am quite often feeling like Parcival, searching for the holy (audio) grail; most of the time (but surely not always!) I am enjoying this (audio) journey.
Rudolph
In Jims room what helps to create the illusion and makes it so real ( for me at least) is that in order to feel you are at the symphony you have to be playing at realistic levels that you would be hearing at the symphony. Most rooms cannot accomplish this. Certainly they can play loud but the luxury of having a room of this magnitude is that you can crank on the gain control and truly believe you are in the first few rows of that concert hall. You can create the volume consistent with what you are playing yet never once have the feeling that you are overloading the room. This is something I have never heard, ever with such convincing effect. Remember also that this room was built with the prime desire by Jim of playing classical music and feel that he is in the concert hall. This was done from the ground up with 3 years for the speakers to come to fruition.
Wow , that sounds plain amazing, to have the Wiener Philharmoniker or the Berliners on tap ! Steve did you listen to more intimate chamber stuff , the opposite end of the scale to a full blown orchestra .Kudos & Congrats to Jim , on achieving reproduction so very very special !
Yes indeed. It's possible to achieve that sense of overwhelming intensity in the reproduction, just as if one were in the presence of the musicians, by a number of means - Jim's system is obviously one method of doing that. As Steve implies, one of the difficulties is that realistic volumes have to be projected with a sense of effortlessness, without drawing one's attention to the parts of the audio system working.
An alternative method is very, very careful refinement of a current system, paying great care to reducing audible distortion, especially when working at elevated sound levels.
Steve,
I would like to refer an aspect that it is so evident that no one is referring to - the room looks and feels very comfortable, I would say cozy although large. Your great photos show relaxed people enjoying the moment. Due to size of room equipment seems in the proper proportion - even the line with the several turntables and big reel to reels seem natural size, not the elephant that my A80 seems to be in my room! The audio equipment is not oppressing people!
From a more technical point of view large rooms have a significant advantage. RT60 is proportional to volume divided by the absorption coefficient multiplied by the area. Volumes increase with the power of three of dimension and area with the power of two. This implies that in a large room, you can have an higher coefficient of absorption without reducing the RT60, critical for classic music. But in these conditions you can just have the needed loudness levels without detrimental effects in the room, as you outlined in your description of the room sound capabilities. I have referred to this effect as music sounding powerful but not excessively loud.
IMHO probably it is why the "ambience" system Albert Von Schweikert described in post #140 becomes so important in this system - in smaller rooms perhaps it would be less efficient.
And now I hope that real experts will chime to correct my amateur comments and guesses!
It's really hard to put into words what the group heard in Jim's place. As I read Steve and Albert's detailed description, I can only nod my head in agreement word for word, and again to nod again on Steve's reconfirmation on the various questions regarding illusion or live music. As indeed the audio hobby is a 'personal' thing, with virtually no system in the world the same in terms of gears, cables, and room size and acoustics, for a person to achieve what is called an illusion of live music for me is an achievement in itself. Whether it's an illusion or not, to me, it doesn't matter, it's what my mind tells me, and if I say real, then it becomes real. And for the owner of the system, that is the ultimately gratification. How real was Jim's room when the musical performance was going on? I've heard many big systems and none of which recreated a solid and complete lateral spread of the sound stage where ever I sat. I sat at the back where there was a round nook/or smoking lounge 
and I could hear one seamless sound stage as I had experienced in live music, and I was on the left side of the back area, not even at the center. That was a unique experience for me, whether Jim played For Duke, or an intimate vocal group The Brothers Four, there is no 'hole' anywhere in the sound stage, the 3D musical performance comes in perfectly anywhere I sat. And the music, even at loud levels, does not lunge towards the listener, it just stays there, like in a 'pocket' - a deep and wide and tall pocket. There is absolutely no listener fatigue. That, for me, is incredible.
and I could hear one seamless sound stage as I had experienced in live music, and I was on the left side of the back area, not even at the center. That was a unique experience for me, whether Jim played For Duke, or an intimate vocal group The Brothers Four, there is no 'hole' anywhere in the sound stage, the 3D musical performance comes in perfectly anywhere I sat. And the music, even at loud levels, does not lunge towards the listener, it just stays there, like in a 'pocket' - a deep and wide and tall pocket. There is absolutely no listener fatigue. That, for me, is incredible.Yes, this is a good description of competent playback - the shame is that such doesn't occur more often ... :b.I sat at the back where there was a round nook/or smoking lounge
Frank, perhaps Jim has done both with his system: a purpose built room with carefully chosen and designed equipment and careful set up and then "very, very careful refinement of his (current) system, paying great care to reducing audible distortion, especially when working at elevated sound levels."
Peter, Jim has some natural advantages to his gear: extremely solid, heavy, inert speaker carcases, that would be stable platforms for the drivers to perform at their best at all times; the crossovers are separated from the carcases so minimal vibration issues there; powerful amplification that would be working well down on their potential at normal listening levels, and only working in narrow frequency bands for specific drivers. Most people wouldn't have the luxury of these conditions, which make the job more straightforward to accomplish.
Any system capable of clean high volume levels also has to be very carefully optimised, of course - this is why PA style setups often can sound so obnoxious, the intensity of the sound means that all the irritating aspects in the sound are so much louder, and more obvious - the raising of the volume possible for normal listening has to go hand in hand with eliminating anomalous artifacts.
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