Opinions on the role of the preamp in a modern single source system

[Saturntube]

Ok. I guess having that extra gain and low output impedance did leave some lee way for a spectacular response.

Soundwise what happened was that the active preamp took all the information out of the source and placed it in the soundstage perfectly layered and in its exact size and shape. Before I was using 110 db horns it was very helpful, I went on and off the active preamp a lot of times and always missed it when it was not around. Sorry to say but the preamp was very unreliable, and it did made a few trips to the technician.
Once I got my first big horns from 120 hz up (all else do not pass as horn system but only lousy PA IMHO) I did try the active preamp against the passive on and off , A-B time and time again to find out there were very few details, instances when the active beat the passive, and very minor things that the passive did better than the active, so close I had to let go the Metaxas preamp due to its reliability issues. No other preamp I have tried does the same thing as this one, and I have tried a lot! Now I am multiamping I wish I never sold it, since I do need the stable power, high gain and low output impedance to drive 3 or 4 amps!

 

[AudioExplorations]

Seriously though, how could a sonic preference be explained?

Let's assume the sonics are preferred with a preamp in the chain given the DAC can adequately drive a power amp input stage.

So there is added distortion, noise, phase shift?, coloration. In theory the sound cannot get closer to the original recorded signal, but in practice there are SO many who prefer the sound this way, this simply cannot be ignored.

Are all these people using source components that are not up to the power-amp-direct task? Maybe for a large majority this is the case.

Are all these people preferring an added coloration?

Is the distortion/noise preferred because this is what they have been used to? Kind of like the mp3 effect where younger generations are said to prefer mp3 artifacts over lossless audio because this is what they grew up with. Or is there more harmonic distortion content akin to using tubes or vinyl?

Leaving the technical theory behind for a minute, how could the widespread sonic preference be explained?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Seriously though, how could a sonic preference be explained?

Let's assume the sonics are preferred with a preamp in the chain given the DAC can adequately drive a power amp input stage.

So there is added distortion, noise, phase shift?, coloration. In theory the sound cannot get closer to the original recorded signal, but in practice there are SO many who prefer the sound this way, this simply cannot be ignored.

Are all these people using source components that are not up to the power-amp-direct task? Maybe for a large majority this is the case.

Are all these people preferring an added coloration?

Is the distortion/noise preferred because this is what they have been used to? Kind of like the mp3 effect where younger generations are said to prefer mp3 artifacts over lossless audio because this is what they grew up with. Or is there more harmonic distortion content akin to using tubes or vinyl?

Leaving the technical theory behind for a minute, how could the widespread sonic preference be explained?

I think you just explained it.

Tim

 

[barrows]

AE: My explanation is two fold:

1. I think there is more to driving the amp directly than just a "proper" impedance match (10-1 or better). In my experience, even with the impedance being adequate to "work" in theory, some DACs do not seem to have what it takes-I think it may be an issue of current headroom. So I still think many folks may not have tried with a DAC that can really get the job done.
2. System tuning: many will build a system by ear with the preamp in place, that means that their system is tuned to sound "good" subjectively with the sonic compromises which the preamp brings (colorations). Even the best preamp in the world is a lossy component with compromises (including transformer base or other passives, they distort as well). So if one has a subjectively tuned system, which was tuned by ear to sound pleasant, it will sound different without the preamp (although being more accurate to the source). Of course, there is nothing wrong with this preference.

If my results yeilded number 2 as above though, I would know that I am preferring additional losses in my system and with that knowledge I, personally, would try and seek out the problem.

 

[AudioExplorations]

I got an email notification of a reply from Tom (tomelex) which for some reason didn't make it onto the thread, here it is:

"Audiophiles like to or do depend on their own hearing as a sort of reference. When they change a component and hear "more" detail or "retrieve more info", it is as often as is not that the new device simply has a different added harmonic spread (just look at all the harmonics added to the twin tone IMD tests in sterephile charts for example, and multiply all that mess by a hundred times for real music) and the fact that they can hear this re-inforces their ability to hear changes and then at that point they decide yes, it sounds better or no it does not........really......its just a never ending game of tone controls.....in regards to pre-amps, we have already established the need for the source component to have enough power to drive the target device (eg amp) without added distortions due to the interaction between source, interconnect and load.

Its rather simple really. The same idea applies all the way across the board for all components used in audio, right at the microphone through the speaker and the room effect and then our individual ears and brain processing systems.

Tom"

 

[barrows]

Tom: With the exception, that, as audiophiles, we have no control over the recording chain. We can attempt to choose and seek out the very best (uncolored, neutral and resolved) recordings of the music we wish to listen to, but in the end, all we can really control is our playback system. Therefore: what happens before playback is essentially irrelevant to us, we choose our playback system to provide the most pleasurable playback of the widest variety of music we are interested in listening to, as best we can (if one has not figured out already, this process is a compromise).

 

[LL21]

Tom: With the exception, that, as audiophiles, we have no control over the recording chain. We can attempt to choose and seek out the very best (uncolored, neutral and resolved) recordings of the music we wish to listen to, but in the end, all we can really control is our playback system. Therefore: what happens before playback is essentially irrelevant to us, we choose our playback system to provide the most pleasurable playback of the widest variety of music we are interested in listening to, as best we can (if one has not figured out already, this process is a compromise).

Agree with this point. Further, i would emphasize that every recording has been made differently...and yet we must play every recording back using just one system. That too by definition means it is a compromise of getting back to as close to the original event as possible.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Oh yeah, thats because I deleted it very shortly after I posted it, but only because I thought it was obvious and redundant, but I did enjoy reading it again...interesting opinion from that tomelex dude Tom

Sorry! Thought you made a good point there...

 

[dallasjustice]

Here is a great Pre-amp! You can plug it into Jriver as a VST for some fun.

http://www.mcrow.net/Preamp Emulator VST.htm

I think the "warmer" setting sounds like my kind of distortion.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Hah! I will try it out tonight

 

[AudioExplorations]

Just for an additional data point. I have had the chance to try out a Lyra Connoisseur 4.2L SE preamp in my system over the past week. This $25K preamp is said to be one of the absolute best in the world market.

Adding the Lyra into the chain resulted in a loss of resolution and addition of distortion/grain across the audioband. The signal simply lost it's purity of tone. The pre also added a slight hum but this was not bothersome. At first I was under the impression that the pre brought some extra drive/body to the sound but no longer think this is the case at all.

This re-confirms my standpoint on the preamp debate, I have tried 4-5 high end preamps, and now the $25K Lyra connoisseur 4.2L se in the system and the sound has always been better going power amp direct (from my Weiss Medea Plus into both a burmester 911mk3 and a dartzeel nhb-108b).

 

[andromedaaudio]

I kinda like have the same impression.
I prefer the zanden integrated without the CAT pre .
The CAT grips the sound a bit more , the zanden alone is a tiny bit looser, but also more transparent, and maybe more correct in abs terms
I am unable to sell the Boulder until now , so ill probably buy a Levinson 32 for a separate SS sound chain, i have always wanted that pre amp at some stage.

 

[A.wayne]

Whats the output impedance of your Dac ....?

Just for an additional data point. I have had the chance to try out a Lyra Connoisseur 4.2L SE preamp in my system over the past week. This $25K preamp is said to be one of the absolute best in the world market.

Adding the Lyra into the chain resulted in a loss of resolution and addition of distortion/grain across the audioband. The signal simply lost it's purity of tone. The pre also added a slight hum but this was not bothersome. At first I was under the impression that the pre brought some extra drive/body to the sound but no longer think this is the case at all.

This re-confirms my standpoint on the preamp debate, I have tried 4-5 high end preamps, and now the $25K Lyra connoisseur 4.2L se in the system and the sound has always been better going power amp direct (from my Weiss Medea Plus into both a burmester 911mk3 and a dartzeel nhb-108b).

 

[AudioExplorations]

0.2 ohms

 

[LL21]

I have only tried direct into preamp a couple of times...never been for me. But i could well have tried the wrong DAC/pre. The two which come to mind are the older DCS Elgar Plus vs an ARC Ref 3, and more recently the Audio Aero La Source DAC vs my CJ GAT. Despite the chain that the sound must travel thru via a separate preamp, i have preferred the sound with preamp. I was very impressed going direct, but felt the 'preamp section' of the ARC Ref 3 and CJ GAT were superior to their counterparts. Interestingly, the dealers of the DCS and the La Source concurred during the auditions, which i thought was quite honest of them. There was a greater difference between the CJ GAT and the Audio Aero La Source in favor of the CJ GAT, than there was between the Elgar Plus and the ARC Ref 3.

 

[microstrip]

0.2 ohms

Even lower that the output impedance of your DartZeel power amplifier?

 

[MarinJim]

I have only tried direct into preamp a couple of times...never been for me. But i could well have tried the wrong DAC/pre. The two which come to mind are the older DCS Elgar Plus vs an ARC Ref 3, and more recently the Audio Aero La Source DAC vs my CJ GAT. Despite the chain that the sound must travel thru via a separate preamp, i have preferred the sound with preamp. I was very impressed going direct, but felt the 'preamp section' of the ARC Ref 3 and CJ GAT were superior to their counterparts. Interestingly, the dealers of the DCS and the La Source concurred during the auditions, which i thought was quite honest of them. There was a greater difference between the CJ GAT and the Audio Aero La Source in favor of the CJ GAT, than there was between the Elgar Plus and the ARC Ref 3.

I have to agree in part. I have never heard a direct DAC to amp sound as good as a great preamp in the chain. I know the US importer of Weiss, and he uses a Weiss to Concert Fidelity to Hegel amp in all his shows and showroom.

 

[edorr]

I have tried various preamps and I both with my PerfectWave MII and my EMM Labs DAC2X, I have consistenly prefered DAC direct to poweramp. I am currently using a digital volume control before my EMM Labs DAC2X (which itself does not have a volume control), but I presume this is equivalent to have a digital volume control in the DAC itself. In my experienve, by added the an active preamp circuit in the chain I loose dynamics and transparency.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Even lower that the output impedance of your DartZeel power amplifier?

Slight correction, the original Medea was 0.2 Ohm (so yes lower than the dart power amp), the newer Medea Plus is quoted as < 100 Ohms.

 

[kach22i]

In my experience, by added the an active preamp circuit in the chain I loose dynamics and transparency.

About 15 years ago I had a Yamaha carousel CD player with variable output (using a MASH-1 chip). I took the Mid-Fi Carver CT-17 pre-amp out of the chain and a veil was taken off the system. Dynamics and transparency like I had never heard from my system was in abundance. There was a certain lack of body or soul to the music, but the clean clearness more than made up for it.

I then shortly afterwords upgraded to a Hi-End CD player lacking variable output (McIntosh), and despite the CT-17's choke hold still sounded better.

Later on I upgraded to a Hi-End tube pre-amp and tube amp which completed the circle and finally gave me the balanced system I had sought for so long.

Moral of the story, a good source is the most important thing, but a poor pre-amp can really screw things up. Balance in the end is the most important factor.

If you cannot obtain a good pre-amp, then yes you are better off without one. However, a pre-amp will retain both body and soul of the music which could be loss without it.

I realize "body & soul" is not a technical term with the science of impedance or rational explanation behind it. I'll leave it to others to expalin the mechanical/electrical workings of it, while I sit back and enjoy the music.