Yes, I misunderstood Ron's comment as being general about vintage vinyl playback versus contemporary equipment in the context that he provided: Kronos, TechDAS, Clearaudio, etc. I did not understand that he meant specifically this particular EMT 927 table with Ortofon arm. Yes, from everything I have heard, it is one of the best examples of vintage vinyl and as good or better than what is produced today.
Opus1 vs. MSL Platinum
- Thread starter Tango
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Yes, I misunderstood Ron's comment as being general about vintage vinyl playback versus contemporary equipment in the context that he provided: Kronos, TechDAS, Clearaudio, etc. I did not understand that he meant specifically this particular EMT 927 table with Ortofon arm. Yes, from everything I have heard, it is one of the best examples of vintage vinyl and as good or better than what is produced today.
I made a mistake in saying above and would like to make a correction.
SAT integral arm wire that goes straight to my phono is copper with silver plated.
Sorry for getting fact wrong on your arm Marc.
Tang
They’re sure are.
I believe that most of the set ups with those “current” production TT are more modern oriented. And for some may sound a bit analytical compare to a really good “old school” style turntable.
I guess if you put an Sme 3012r (that got a bit of an hype around) or Ikeda/EMT/ortofon arm with some natural sounding cartridge you will hear that dense , natural and music flow without going down the rabbit hole for all that detail “analytical” type of sound.
I heard that on TechDAS , Brinkman, and other contemporary turntable.
(All the above is not in anyway bashing the 927, or others top mechines of the past that still around and got us chilled from great music)
Btw I’ve got a torqeuo audio coming in a few months and it will be putting next to an AF...
so I will get some more experience to evaluate different styles and topologys side by side.. to add my own till now.
The 927 and the AS 2000 are excellent audio investments Christian...at least for me here in Thailand.
Tang
I didn't think that you could hear major differences this way but it's very clear and only one sounds natural and un-hyped.
The other two are more or less interchangeable.
david
Tang, I am fascinated by this thread. The title clearly sets up a comparison between two cartridges. Yet, as the discussion moves along and once we see/hear the three videos, we are told that the differences in sound are not because of the cartridges but more a result of the vintage turntable/arm combination being compared to the two modern turntable/arm combinations. David is confident that it is the turntable because he commented that he knows two of these three tables well and hears their sound come through.
There is also the arm: The Kronos/Opus and TechDAS/MSL combinations both have the contemporary SAT arm with silver platted copper wiring as a common element, and you are both saying that those combinations are more or less interchangeable, both sounding unnatural and hyped. Because the arm is the same, is it the cartridges or the turntables that are interchangeable, or both? How do you know the sonic difference is because of the EMT and not the modern SAT arm versus the vintage Ortofon arm?
I understand that you don't want to change cartridges, or arms because you are very happy with the EMT/Ortofon/Atlas but this exercise would confirm these opinions. Are you confident that the sonic differences are entirely the result of the EMT/Ortofon imparting a "natural" sound, regardless of cartridge, and that the differences are not the Ortofon arm versus the SAT arm? And if the EMT/Ortofon combination is what makes these recordings sound natural, is it adding a unifying natural sound over all recordings much like the modern gear makes everything sound hyped/analytical or what ever you want to call it?
Or, are you both saying that it is the silver wire which is hyping the sound of all of the modern gear by overlaying a unifying coloration and that the vintage table/arm sounds natural because it has copper tonearm wire?
From afar, without the ability to hear these specific combinations and not really knowing these components in the context of other systems, I am a bit confused about what is the cause of these particular sonic traits. You seem to be saying that it is not the cartridges, but rather the EMT/Ortofon/copper wire (regardless of modern cartridge) which is the only combination that sounds natural and that the modern gear all sounds hyped because it is either designed to sound analytical or overly detailed or because the SAT has silver platted copper wire.
Sorry for all of the questions. I'm just trying to make sense of your conclusions.
Unbelievable - an SME 3012R with the original cable at a nice price at Ebay in Australia unsold for more than 24 hours!
Dear Peter,
I am flattered and honored that you are trying to divine some greater meaning from what I wrote but I really did not intend a pronouncement of any significance.
I did not mean specifically the sound of Tang's EMT/Ortofon combination. I did not intend to state anything about vintage versus contemporary in general.
I was posting approvingly only on Tang's description of what he was hearing from what happened to be a vintage vinyl playback set-up. If I (most importantly) and a majority of my friends here listen to my system someday and describe (honestly) the sound produced by my system using Tang's description I will be ecstatic and feel "mission accomplished!"
Is it easier to achieve that sound with vintage equipment? I do not know, but it seems like it might be.
It seems like many of the discussions here and system upgrades contemplated and component swaps announced are to achieve "higher resolution" and "more detail" and "greater extension at the frequency extremes," etc., and I think all that goes in a direction that I, personally, do not find natural or "musical" or emotionally-involving.
So when someone describes a sound as "natural" and "musical" and "tonally dense" and "not analytical" I think to myself: "Gee - that is the description I am striving for. I bet I would really like that sound!"
Many audiophiles are supremely happy with those top contemporary turntables -- and they should be! Each one of them is state-of-the-art and one of the best turntables in the world today.
I felt lost trying to choose among Kronos, TechDAS, Clearaudio and Invictus because I could not compare these turntables side by side, and because I had a totally subjective, personal, idiosyncratic question/concern about each one, and I simply could not develop a clear, defensible and enduring preference for one over the others.
I love the sound quality and the build quality of the AF1, but I don't love the complexity of the design. I love the sound quality of the Kronos, but for some weird reason I get uncomfortable watching the counter-rotating platter. I love the build quality of the Clearaudio, but I have never found the sound of the Master Innovation or even of the Statement to be super special or terribly involving. I love the build quality of the Acoustic Signature Invictus but I had no easy way to listen to one in person, and I am not sure if I cotton to the multiple little motors design.
So when David described the AS-2000 I knew already that I like the sound of the original American Sound turntable (talk about resolution!). I like the minimalist but heroically robust design of the AS-2000. I love the air lift of the massive platter, without the complicated air everything of the AF1. Massive weight of a turntable to damp vibration naturally is a design which makes sense to me. David's American Sound turntable (the only one I saw in person) has solid stainless steel arm mounts which look like they literally could be run over by an SUV and emerge unscathed.
Plus I know David personally, and I am awed by David's decades of experience with vintage turntables. And David, in Utah, is a lot closer than someone in Japan or Germany. The proximity of the designer is comforting to me.
So these are some of the strains of thought underlying my decision to order the AS-2000, rather one of the obvious, contemporary, state-of-the-art products.
It's a process of time Peter, the differences among the tts are the most obvious and easiest to distinguish specially when you have them side by side like Tang does. Tonearms can take a while to get to know well, it comes with experience of setup until then mostly guess work and they'll be long term residents until one figures them out. Cartridges are the guests, frequently in and out in this type of comprehensive environment and this level there's nothing wrong with any of these cartridges and the minor nuances won't affect the overall experience. You're not going to assess much if anything at all from Tang's videos beyond the nature of the tables when you know what to listen for, you can't demonstrate cartridge/arm/cable differences through youtube and cellphone videos played back through computers. He's reached magic in his EMT setup, the differences between arms and cartridges are irrelevant at this point gaining a little bit here won't enhance the experience and IMO a total waste time at this stage, this is the difference between simply great gear and what I called the "Beyond" level. If your concern is the cartridges, I've setup all 3 in other systems, no mistake buying any of them.
david
It’s sold now....I considered it but that black colored lift base threw me off.
Sawasdee Khun Tang,
Thank you so much for the video uploads of the combo Kronos/Opus 1. I have been seriously studied about them since almost 1 year. I could not have audition in Vietnam for the Opus 1 until I listened to your video with my high quality headphone on, to extract the best I could from a video. The sound, even from video is so clear, so CRISP I know it must be like being on cloud 9 being physically there in your listening room. Big congrat from Ho Chi Minh City, Khun Tang. Your system is WONDERFUL! I feel like the combo with MSL sounds a bit less crisp to my ears. Maybe bcs of the fact 30 hours only on it? I am so sure I would go for Opus 1 now (I have been debating between Goldfinger Statement which I've listened to it with TW AC-3/ Wilson Alexandria XLF, Nordost Odin and LOVED IT but never got the chance with Opus 1). The Kronos Pro, I am talking to Louis Desjardins with high hope I could be the first happy owner of Kronos Pro in the South of Vietnam. Louis is a perfectionist and I can see it shows in his products.
PS1: I have been reading all your posts since almost a year and have learned so much. Khrup Khun mak Kha, Khun Tang.
PS2: It would be a mistake not to mention the video you uploaded for EMT927/ Keith don't go is a KILLER! I love it!
Best regards, from Saigon
Chau
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Greetings from Ho Chi Minh City/ Saigon, Vietnam,
Dear WBF Residents,
I am a female music lover, who had followed WBF since almost a year. I have read, learned so, so much from reading your valuable threads, posts here and successfully built up my second audio rig which contains of Magico S5MKII and Vitus Audio, MIT cables, Nordost, Shunyata, Entreq ... I have not dared to post anything because I have been too shy to do so. But today, I think I owe many of your gentlemen here, THE MOST SINCERE THANK YOU, for all the things that you have shared and THANK YOU to the WBF's founders/ Moderators. This is such a great, helpful site.
I am now starting to build my analog system. I am very interested in Kronos Pro and Airtight Opus 1. So the thread started by Khun Tang/ Tango is extremely helpful for me, especially being able to listen to it thru videos, since I could not do that in Vietnam.
Thank you, Thank you, thank you All.
Best regads, Chau
Dear WBF Residents,
I am a female music lover, who had followed WBF since almost a year. I have read, learned so, so much from reading your valuable threads, posts here and successfully built up my second audio rig which contains of Magico S5MKII and Vitus Audio, MIT cables, Nordost, Shunyata, Entreq ... I have not dared to post anything because I have been too shy to do so. But today, I think I owe many of your gentlemen here, THE MOST SINCERE THANK YOU, for all the things that you have shared and THANK YOU to the WBF's founders/ Moderators. This is such a great, helpful site.
I am now starting to build my analog system. I am very interested in Kronos Pro and Airtight Opus 1. So the thread started by Khun Tang/ Tango is extremely helpful for me, especially being able to listen to it thru videos, since I could not do that in Vietnam.
Thank you, Thank you, thank you All.
Best regads, Chau
great to hear and read your thoughts.
pleas share in comfort.
this place is civil and pleasant, with the most great audiophiles on the planet.
best to you.
Aviad.
Dear Aviad,
Thank you very much for your warm words. I will try to get out of my shell more often
Kind regards, Chau
Chau, welcome. The great thing about audiophilia is one can be very comfortable in one’s shell as well.
The Pro has a thicker base plate and black anodized counter weights otherwise it's the same tonearm.
david
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