Opus1 vs. MSL Platinum

[byrdparis]

The Pro has a thicker base plate and black anodized counter weights otherwise it's the same tonearm.

david

so regardless of the paint job, one can switch to a thicker base on one 3012R and turn into a PRO. yes?

 

[XV-1]

The Pro has a thicker base plate and black anodized counter weights otherwise it's the same tonearm.

david

Ta . There is another for sale on my side in Australia. $US 4400.

 

[bonzo75]

What's the sonic difference between the pro and the normal one? Does the thicker base do anything.

 

[Chau]

Chau, welcome. The great thing about audiophilia is one can be very comfortable in one’s shell as well.

Thank you very much for your warm welcome Mr. Spiritofmusic
Kind regards, Chau

 

[gian60]

Hi Chau,
welcome also from me,but i give you a suggestion,
please stop to read This beautiful forum,otherwise you will start to spend a lot of money

Regards
Gianluigi

 

[Tango]

Hi Chau,
welcome also from me,but i give you a suggestion,
please stop to read This beautiful forum,otherwise you will start to spend a lot of money

Regards
Gianluigi

And also don’t get too close to the guy named Gian. You will spend even more when you keep in touch with him.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[byrdparis]

And also don’t get too close to the guy named Gian. You will spend even more when you keep in touch with him.

Kind regards,
Tang

hahaha
so true!!!

 

[Tango]

Tang, I am fascinated by this thread. The title clearly sets up a comparison between two cartridges. Yet, as the discussion moves along and once we see/hear the three videos, we are told that the differences in sound are not because of the cartridges but more a result of the vintage turntable/arm combination being compared to the two modern turntable/arm combinations. David is confident that it is the turntable because he commented that he knows two of these three tables well and hears their sound come through.

There is also the arm: The Kronos/Opus and TechDAS/MSL combinations both have the contemporary SAT arm with silver platted copper wiring as a common element, and you are both saying that those combinations are more or less interchangeable, both sounding unnatural and hyped. Because the arm is the same, is it the cartridges or the turntables that are interchangeable, or both? How do you know the sonic difference is because of the EMT and not the modern SAT arm versus the vintage Ortofon arm?

I understand that you don't want to change cartridges, or arms because you are very happy with the EMT/Ortofon/Atlas but this exercise would confirm these opinions. Are you confident that the sonic differences are entirely the result of the EMT/Ortofon imparting a "natural" sound, regardless of cartridge, and that the differences are not the Ortofon arm versus the SAT arm? And if the EMT/Ortofon combination is what makes these recordings sound natural, is it adding a unifying natural sound over all recordings much like the modern gear makes everything sound hyped/analytical or what ever you want to call it?

Or, are you both saying that it is the silver wire which is hyping the sound of all of the modern gear by overlaying a unifying coloration and that the vintage table/arm sounds natural because it has copper tonearm wire?

From afar, without the ability to hear these specific combinations and not really knowing these components in the context of other systems, I am a bit confused about what is the cause of these particular sonic traits. You seem to be saying that it is not the cartridges, but rather the EMT/Ortofon/copper wire (regardless of modern cartridge) which is the only combination that sounds natural and that the modern gear all sounds hyped because it is either designed to sound analytical or overly detailed or because the SAT has silver platted copper wire.

Sorry for all of the questions. I'm just trying to make sense of your conclusions.

Dear Peter,

- If you just listen to the video of MSL and Opus1, the differences you hear (however much there are) are mostly from cartridges because the arms are the same. The word “interchangeable” doesn’t mean no differences. It means not so significantly different.
- The thread is sidetracked because I threw in the video of EMT setup by your request.
- You asked how I know whether the sound differences come from different arms or more from the modern tables vs vintage. My answer is I really don’t know. My experience on the 927 and Ortofon 297 is not long enough. I need to live with them a lot longer and play around with them a lot more. Now I am just hearing how excellent they are, but I can’t tell what brings more to the party..the arm or the table or synergy of both. David definitely can answer that given his long experience with this tt and his abundant access to top equipments he could try in his own system. I will fool around with the Axiom and see how it differs to vintage Ortofon when on 927.
- I like to understand the nature of gears I own and experiment things. But enjoying music is my first priority. So it will take me a lot of time, long time, to understand each gear I add to my system. The problem is I keep adding. So it even takes longer.
- The definition of natural sound can be different from one person to another. Most people use the word natural sound to mostly describe tone, texture, density, unedgyness. But David, to my own understanding, uses it to describe all that plus the overall “presentation”. I hope my writing did not lead people to think that SAT, Kronos, AF1 don’t give this natural tone, density, etc, that I just said. They do, but they may present things differently.
- I find people often define the sound that to them seem natural and real differently. I have three tts that offer different perceptions of what sounds close to real. Some may call Kronos combo true to source. Some may find the EMT combo very natural, musical and involving. In the end it is up to your definition of what sounds most real to your ears. Your ears can only tell which arm sound most real or analytical or natural to you.
- Ron used to say one man’s analytical is another man’s accurate. I have been studying what you interpret as realistic, natural, clinical, etc. If I understand your definition more then I can answer you better in the future.

Tang

 

[Chau]

Hi Chau,
welcome also from me,but i give you a suggestion,
please stop to read This beautiful forum,otherwise you will start to spend a lot of money

Regards
Gianluigi

Dear Don Gianluigi,

Thank you for your warm welcome. I must also send you my sincere thanks because I have read all your posts since almost one year already. About how much your experience with Bergmann, Kronos, AF1, CH Precisions and your beloved cartridge collections, also your photos of Italian custom made huge loudspeakers. I've learned so much from your shares, your thoughts. They are so valuable and certainly I have saved myself a lot of money not to make mistakes (so far ;-) reading here.

Thank you so much.

Kind regards,

Chau

 

[ddk]

What’s the difference between a SME 3009 S2 improved and SME 3009 R?

The important difference is the arm tube, stainless for the 3009-R and aluminum for S2 arms. The rider and counter weights have a better ergonomic design on the R arms.

so regardless of the paint job, one can switch to a thicker base on one 3012R and turn into a PRO. yes?

Not sure if SME ever sold that thicker plate as an option, the black aesthetic is really what the Pro's about, along with limited production is what makes them slightly more desirable.

What's the sonic difference between the pro and the normal one? Does the thicker base do anything.

Not when you use the grommets but there's a small difference when used without them and the base plate is sitting directly on armboard.

david

 

[rockitman]

The Black 3012R Pro on Ebay currently does not appear to have the anti-skate weight, nor the support wheeled arm for the weight.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SME-3012R-...005218?hash=item3b01b98262:g:Fp8AAOSw2n5Zg~KM

 

[Tango]

What's the sonic difference between the pro and the normal one? Does the thicker base do anything.

Hey. It is in black so it will gives a blacker background .

 

[spiritofmusic]

Chau, it’s great to have a distinctive female voice on the forums. I can think of you and...ahem, no others.
Male audiophiles have the ladies in their lives, silent behind the scenes, but I’m sure fully involved.
It’ll be good to have the female voice of reason up front here.
Kronos Pro sounds pretty reasonable to me LOL.

 

[rockitman]

Hey. It is in black so it will gives a blacker background .

here's a gold one for the ultimate bling master
Pricing is problematic though...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SME-3012R-...065015?hash=item3b02530277:g:JGYAAOSwytJaLVVC

 

[spiritofmusic]

Up front and out there, I would’ve thought that would be right up yr alley Christian .

 

[ddk]

...- The definition of natural sound can be different from one person to another. Most people use the word natural sound to mostly describe tone, texture, density, unedgyness. But David, to my own understanding, uses it to describe all that plus the overall “presentation”.

Tang

That's true Tang, you can have a lot of things right and still not have a natural sound. It's the whole package that has sound "natural" bits aren't enough.

david

 

[gian60]

4 years ago i shocked one my friend to let him understand natural sound
He had Alexandria with Krell Evo One amp,very good system
I brought at his home
a monovia small speaker with good driver with amp Leak tl 12 plus with nos tube and Audiotekne cable,all connected to his DCS cd
He was shocked for the natural sound of this system that he never listen
This is one example
Then system with alexandria was much better,but some voices and few instrument from Leak and monovia was magic

David can understand

 

[Chau]

Chau, it’s great to have a distinctive female voice on the forums. I can think of you and...ahem, no others.
Male audiophiles have the ladies in their lives, silent behind the scenes, but I’m sure fully involved.
It’ll be good to have the female voice of reason up front here.
Kronos Pro sounds pretty reasonable to me LOL.

Dear Mr. Spiritofmusic,

Thank you for your kind words but I am sure having a female music lover in any forum simply just means she would ask you about everything, like is RCA or XLR better between phono to power amp...? All the most basic questions I truly hope to be enlightened by all of you gentlemen here so I could finish building my Music Sanctuary successfully.

Kronos Pro sounds only reasonable to you? Shall I reconsider to take the plunge? Because I have friends who say go for it, other tell me to better take Da Vinci Grand Ref. Garbiel 3, and Vertere Ref. Grove... since I am a woman I would prefer them for how sentimental they sound. Too bad in VN it is so hard to have auditions. Mostly we have to believe in our English ability in reading reviews and our great audiophile friends all over the world. So any of you who have experience about the above 3 options please kindly chime in.

Thank you very much.

 

[Ron Resnick]

In Michael Fremer’s Analog Corner column in the April 2018 issue of Stereophile he reports that the TechDAS TDC01 cartridge is very similar to Yoshio Matsudaira’s cartridges for Air Tight and for Yoshio’s own My Sonic Lab cartridges. With small differences in magnets, windings, impedance and output among these cartridges how can any of us select a personal favorite?

 

[Tango]

In Michael Fremer’s Analog Corner column in the April 2018 issue of Stereophile he reports that the TechDAS TDC01 cartridge is very similar to Yoshio Matsudaira’s cartridges for Air Tight and for Yoshio’s own My Sonic Lab cartridges. With small differences in magnets, windings, impedance and output among these cartridges how can any of us select a personal favorite?

Pick the one with tone most favor to your ears and go for the less expensive one. Differences in other attributes are small enough you not going to easily detect if not heard in the same system. They are like twins. I am talking in relation to Opus and MSL. And could possibly be extrapolated to the Techdas. I haven’t heard the Techdas.

Kind regards,
Tang