Paul McGowan Prefers Digital

[the sound of Tao]

Tao, no way am I trying to change him. If you know anything about Ron, you'll know he's a very passionately single minded fellow. His system building, and fight to sort his room, are testament to this.

He started a thread throwing skepticism on Paul's statement, and we've followed suit w our individual levels of skepticism aimed at Ron.

I'm just wondering had Ron heard digital that was palatable to him several years back as the MSB is palatable to him now, and my Eera cdp is an example of truly analog-centric digital, a 2009 design, maybe Ron would have at least partially embraced cd.

My 180 a decade ago, starting w Emm Labs, and completed by Eera, was a wake up call to be open to digital. And has pushed me harder to get the most out of my analog.

There is so much passion and single mindedness across the board, it may well be a unifying audiophile trait, chuck in a good dose of obsession and I figure we’re just about there.

As I wrote my previous post on letting be I realised I’ve been trying very hard to ‘help’ one of my parents lately as they are later in life and my assisting/caring/controlling position is needing a very solid rethink... and that even though some of the stuff happening is borderline bat-s#%t crazy that only the part when they are out on top cleaning the roof in the middle of a heat wave (and are in their mid-80’s and have quite poor movement and balance) is actually a step too far and then needs an intervention. If mum just insists on listening to her record player (which coincidentally she does) then that is ok because she still is just very much in love with the music. Not sure I’ll give her a gift subscription to Roon and leave her struggling with the settings mid-stream at any rate

Ps this is absolutely zero analogy going on here btw, this is all about me trying to get a handle on when I’m helping and when I’m not.

 

[Al M.]

Thank you for your thoughts. I don’t agree with several points, but I appreciate your post.

On what basis can you objectively adjudge my personal bafflement to have gone too far?

Yes, to my ears top tier analog is more transparent than top tier digital.

I really think you should figure out a way to audition leisurely and carefully in your own system an MSB DAC. I suspect it would result in you viewing the DACs you are familiar with in a different sonic light.

The MSB DACs have allowed me to enjoy listening to digital. They were a big and unexpected revelation to me.

Ron,

it is perfectly fine when you always find analog superior. I am certainly not trying to convince you otherwise.

I sometimes find analog superior, and sometimes digital, and in my post I have given some examples where the case is pretty clear cut for me either way; there other cases where preference is not that clear.

Again, neither I nor, I think, anyone else, argues against your preference and even conviction. Yet in my view you go too far when you express bafflement that not everyone by necessity shares your preferences and convictions. The world is full of different opinions. Live and let live, I would say.

 

[sbo6]

Sbo6, I'm that typical vinyl guy who was as anti digital in the 80s as anyone. I regularly said to people "You're joking, right, that you prefer cd?!" LOL.

And the first decade of seriously building audio systems was a very pro analog period. I spent big on the Marantz SA1, and hated every moment of cd playback.

A decade ago I finally "got" digital w the Emm Labs CDSA SE, and five years later my current Eera Tentation cdp, and found in so many areas my analog was lacking.

And just as I felt that my lot in life was cast w analog I couldn't quite get right, I've reoptimised my tt with a critical addition to my tonearm, and like waking from a trance, I've got my analog absolutely rocking again, handily outperforming my digital.

So, I come to Ron's thread as a previously 100% analog headbanger who has fully embraced digital, now only a 50% headbanger.

I remain perplexed Ron hasn't found more on digital he cant do without. Sarah McLachlan is a favourite of his, and I'm sure there are non vinyl titles on cd or streaming. Barry showed me a bunch of things on his IPad.

I couldn't imagine being a fan of hers and not wanting songs or albums even if not on vinyl.

Too bad Ron never found a digital source he liked some years ago as I did.

My journey wasn't too different from yours and I think many of us over 45 grew up with vinyl / TTs, tried the small silver discs and found them to sound horrible (primarily because of the horrible CD players) and many years later swung back to digital because the quality was comparable with analog and better for the $ for most budgets. I'd add an analog source for all those wonderful remastered analog production jazz records that sound only so - so (if available) on digital but the cost to match the quality of my digital is $ I'd rather spend elsewhere (currently in process of assessing new speakers).

Steve

Steve

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

it is perfectly fine when you always find analog superior. I am certainly not trying to convince you otherwise.

I sometimes find analog superior, and sometimes digital, and in my post I have given some examples where the case is pretty clear cut for me either way; there other cases where preference is not that clear.

Again, neither I nor, I think, anyone else, argues against your preference and even conviction. Yet in my view you go too far when you express bafflement that not everyone by necessity shares your preferences and convictions. The world is full of different opinions. Live and let live, I would say.

Respectfully, Al, this is another misstatement of my opening post. Please show me where I expressed bafflement that not “everyone” shares my preferences.

I think you’ll find that I expressed bafflement only about one person’s professed preference — Paul. One person seems to me to be very far from “everyone.”

I agree very strongly with “live and let live.” Please indicate the post number in which I sought to impose my view on anyone else? Where did I insist that people bend to my pro-analog bias?

I am baffled (but not surprised) that so many people here are flummoxed and upset by my disagreement with them. Why aren’t they letting me “live”?

 

[Al M.]

Respectfully, Al, this is another misstatement of my opening post. Please show me where I expressed bafflement that not “everyone” shares my preferences.

I think you’ll find that I expressed bafflement only about one person’s professed preference — Paul. One person seems to me to be very far from “everyone.”

Ron, yes, you are right, my apologies for the sloppiness.

I agree very strongly with “live and let live.”

Great, and knowing you I had expected no different.

Please indicate the post number in which I sought to impose my view on anyone else? Where did I insist that people bend to my pro-analog bias?

I am baffled (but not surprised) that so many people here are flummoxed and upset by my disagreement with them. Why aren’t they letting me “live”?

As I see it, it very much seemed (regardless if that was your actual intention or not) that you sought to impose your view when you said in your post to Paul McGowan that you copied into your opening post:

"I am baffled that digital truly could be your honest sonic preference",

and you questioned his motives in the paragraph prior. You also seemed to question his motives in post #25 and #67. I would want to add that TimA made good points in #75.

I am not sure if many people here are flummoxed and upset with your disagreement with them. What many are wondering is how you can have such strong opinions about digital with relatively limited exposure to it. They have the same right of skepticism as you have when you question someone's opinion on analog when they have had limited or no exposure to top level analog playback.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I am baffled (but not surprised) that so many people here are flummoxed and upset by my disagreement with them. Why aren’t they letting me “live”?

IMHO people are being very polite with your systematic effort to denigrate digital as an inferior music format, particularly considering your little experience with it and apparent desire of not learning about it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

IMHO people are being very polite with your systematic effort to denigrate digital as an inferior music format, particularly considering your little experience with it and apparent desire of not learning about it.

Your post above alleges that I am asserting as an objective fact that digital is “an inferior music format.” Please cite for us the post number in which I assert this.

I have written no such thing. I have posted what must now be dozens of times on this forum that this is a subjective hobby, and that all preferences (honestly determined) are valid.

In this thread I have posted about my surprise about Paul’s personal preference, and about my subjective preference for analog. I have never declared as an objective truism for all audiophiles that digital is an inferior music format.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Interestingly Paul McGowan has further sharpened his view that one builds a system specifically for vinyl or specifically for digital, writing today that: “Every component in our system was chosen based on our source preference: digital or vinyl.”


Source specific

Every component in our system was chosen based on our source preference: digital or vinyl. If we’re assembling a vinyl system then everything that follows is judged on how good music tracked with a needle sounds. Or, if digital, how a CD sounds.
We’ve covered this ground before but it is ground worth revisiting.
When building a system my advice is to choose your loudspeakers first and to invest the greatest amount of money in them. Everything else follows from there. But that isn’t quite the same as my opening statement of tuning to the source. Or is it? When you evaluate those new speakers it will likely be based on the source you’re most comfortable with.
We don’t always think about our selection process in terms of source material. Few think of the process as building a vinyl-based system, or a digital one. Instead, we tell ourselves we’re building a music systemand we just prefer one source to another. The reality is that the source mediums are so different they wind up dictating just about every decision in the chain: speakers, amplifiers, preamps, wires, room conditioning, positioning, voicing. All tuned to our source material.
Which is why you can’t judge source technology by simply plopping it into a system pre-tuned for the opposite. Dropping the finest digital source equipment into a vinyl-based setup won’t work. You will always prefer the original.
It may not be possible to have a system that’s optimized for both so let’s not make sweeping proclamations about which is better, digital or analog.
All we can legitimately say is what we prefer in our optimized system.

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/source-specific/

Do you think this is correct?

I feel this goes too far. I personally select the loudspeaker first, but I believe I do this without thinking about source media. Next I select the amplifier to drive properly the speaker; I am not thinking about the source media to figure out what amp goes with the speaker.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, yes, you are right, my apologies for the sloppiness.



Great, and knowing you I had expected no different.



As I see it, it very much seemed (regardless if that was your actual intention or not) that you sought to impose your view when you said in your post to Paul McGowan that you copied into your opening post:

"I am baffled that digital truly could be your honest sonic preference",

and you questioned his motives in the paragraph prior. You also seemed to question his motives in post #25 and #67. I would want to add that TimA made good points in #75.

I am not sure if many people here are flummoxed and upset with your disagreement with them. What many are wondering is how you can have such strong opinions about digital with relatively limited exposure to it. They have the same right of skepticism as you have when you question someone's opinion on analog when they have had limited or no exposure to top level analog playback.

All fair points, Al. Thank you.

 

[Al M.]

All fair points, Al. Thank you.

Thank *you*, Ron, for a fair discussion! I think it has advanced mutual understanding; you were also correct in patiently pointing out when your position was mischaracterized.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO people are being very polite with your systematic effort to denigrate digital as an inferior music format, particularly considering your little experience with it and apparent desire of not learning about it.

agree with Micro.

much respect is evident toward you from the 'rope' you have been given to go 'off reservation' on your digital music approach.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't subscribe to Paul's approach at all. All the things that make a system great apply to digital and analog. The only areas for specific concern are vibration isolation for the tt, and noise supression for digital. But both sources benefit from fastidious attention to detail.

His argument is a false dichotomy IMHO.

 

[NorthStar]

Me I think that if our primary music source is analog then we pick the rest of the audio hi-fi components to match in our room, loudspeakers inclusively.
...Vice versa for digital music sources. ...And for both (two systems in harmony in a single room...ML).

I like Paul, he inspires calm and harmony and good common sense.

 

[dbeau]

Me I think that if our primary music source is analog then we pick the rest of the audio hi-fi components to match in our room, loudspeakers inclusively.
...Vice versa for digital music sources. ...And for both (two systems in harmony in a single room...ML).

I like Paul, he inspires calm and harmony and good common sense.

Some of us (myself) didn't 'start off' with preconceived objectives for digital or analogue. I had TT basis and picked up CD later and began buying/swapping equipment for better sound for both for many years BUT a later point dumped TT for convenience and improving digital and, without thinking much about it, began acquiring equipment and speakers that improved SQ which now was digital. To be sure I've ended up with SS Dac and Preamp sending to tube mono amps and Wilson XT1s as that worked best in my system and room. POINT: these things often morph/evolve without an initial plan - at least for myself.

 

[Alrainbow]

I think it's never good to put one format against another. It's always to become not about virtues of each but more about being insulted .
As for ps audio And i do have profound respect for Paul. But having said this. They are pretty far from SOTA
And his efforts at anolog are even less.
I grew up on analog and jumped to digital when it hit. Many years later have a new respect for all analog. And even though I love my digital my faves are sourced from analog lol.
I feel they are not the same and never should be pitted against each other. As for being insulted I'm sorry I don't see the point in feeeling it.
As I said at the top ps audio whom I love as a vender is not nearly on par with great analog.
Now don't bash ok it's all just my view

 

[NorthStar]

I looked @ Mike Lavigne's music journey as a mentor.
He is one of the most accomplished audiophile explorers.

More importantly than his job and his gear I look @ his music from all sources.
Plus he is a very nice guy always polite and speaking generously and with balanced human values.
...Just a good dedicated hi-fi human lover on all things moving by hearing and seeing and feeling.
He's open to all what's best.

He never tried to impose anything on anyone, but giving and sharing all up; like other best members like him here. Bruce is nice too on that aspect, and Christian, and Marc, and Francisco, and hundreds, thousands more on these pages of the Internet plus the ones who are gone (RIP Andre, Ron, ...), the ones who are about to join in and the ones who are peaceful and quiet and reading and sharing once in a while.

If Paul went the music direction he went to; he's the one who knows best.
If MikeL went the music journée he went to; ...
If Steve ...
If Ron ...

 

[Bruce B]

He never tried to impose anything on anyone, but giving and sharing all up; like other best members like him here. Bruce is nice too on that aspect, and Christian, and Marc, and Francisco, and hundreds, thousands more on these pages of the Internet plus the ones who are gone (RIP Andre, Ron, ...), the ones who are about to join in and the ones who are peaceful and quiet and reading and sharing once in a while.

If Paul went the music direction he went to; he's the one who knows best.
If MikeL went the music journée he went to; ...
If Steve ...
If Ron ...

Well thank-you kind sir... As the older I get, I try to avoid conflict. I'm at a much nicer place now....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Bob,

wow. not sure what prompted this. that's a lot to live up to. i'm humbled by such words, but thank you for that. i just do what is fun for me to do.

while i do take the pursuit of the hobby seriously, i try not to take myself too seriously......and not act defensively. as Bruce mentions, as we get older we learn to avoid battles, or at least choose them wisely.

again, thanks. and agree we are fortunate there are many others who have a similar approach. i think we all reflect each other's good will back around.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Agreed!

 

[NorthStar]

If we keep that direction we are on the right path of excellence.
There are no other roads I want to travel on, even the ones that are rough, bumpy, with large crevasses, steep inclinations, dangerous, perilous, and require an all terrain electric truck to climb the highest snowpeaks. ...Or by foot if the heart still allows it.