Phono cables....last link or first link in the chain?

[DaveyF]

We have several experts on analog on this forum. So, with that said, I would like to get the member's feedback as to the "all important" phono cable.
I haven't seen much credence given to this cable by reviewers, BUT I would think it is perhaps the most important cable in the chain.( or maybe not)
To my questions: 1) who uses the DIN connection vs. the RCA connection and why? 2) Which cable do you use and why? 3) Can one use a generic ic cable as
a substitute cable in this position? 4) Is length that important...shorter the better or no difference? 5) grounding wire...yes or no? 6) Is it important to have the same
make of cable in this position as the rest of your ic's/speaker cables? 7) Who has their tonearm wire from the cartridge connect directly to the preamp...thereby bypassing the 'phono cable' connection at the tonearm. ( i.e. no separate phono cable and no junction box/connection which I would think would be the best solution, BUT could bring other issues to be considered).

Lastly, are we to be concerned about the type/ design of the wiring from the cartridge to the junction box of the tonearm, or ??

 

[DonH50]

Disclaimer: My TT is not currently set up.

I assume you mean the cable from TT to preamp and not the wires in the tonearm.

1. RCA. Because it's what I've always used. The DIN is less common and generally combines conductors more closely, potentially leading to higher capacitance and crosstalk while reducing bandwidth.

2. I don't recall but my favorites were a Fulton something-or-other and a home brew that used the lowest capacitance cable I could get. I think it was 93-ohm video coax with ~10 pF/ft.

3. Presumably but what does "generic mean? I would look for low capacitance and good shielding, which can be found in numerous inexpensive cables.

4. Yes, because the cartridge is sensitive to capacitive loading and longer means more of that as well as greater potential for noise pickup. I prefer the shortest cable possible.

5. Whether that matters is dependent upon the grounding scheme of your TT and the input stage of your preamp. I prefer to have an extra heavy ground wire to provide options, and have usually used it. My custom cable included a 12 AWG ground wire.

6. No, but note I am not a big believer in fancy cables.

7. The mechanical and shielding requirements are usually quite different inside and outside the tonearm. I prefer to choose the right wire for the job, and that means I would not do that.

8. I have usually used small, light, flexible wire inside the tonearm. I think what's in my old Magnepan Unipivot is silver Litz wire I got at dealer's accommodation or better; no idea the brand now.

All IMO, YMMV, FWIWFM, my 0.000001 cents, etc. - Don

 

[puroagave]

nowadays i have a rega, incognito wired (cardas) in one unbroken run from cartridge clips to preamp. the biggest hurdle is dressing the wires, some of the latest and greatest arms need lots of care, resulting i one or more breaks, luckily i dont - imo, a single run is ideal (under a metre in length if possible). my old sota cosmos/sme had like three breaks: cartidge to headshell, din plug to rca termination box to standard pair of interconnects. it sounded alright but it couldnt be good for the singal at such minute voltages.

 

[cjfrbw]

Without addressing the points, yes, if there is any cable to pay attention to, it is that one, and I am not a cable guy. The cable becomes part of the tiny, hair like cartridge wires/coils, and has such, can have a disproportionate influence compared to the other cables carrying larger voltages and signals.

 

[Bill Hart]

Isn't there a trade-off between having the flexibility of using any brand of cable between tone arm and phono stage by introducing a 'termination block' or whatever you want to call it, with additional connectors vs having a continuous run from cartridge leads to the plugs, with the limitation that you are basically 'stuck' with whatever cable is hardwired into the arm?
Granted, some (perhaps many) arm makers may let you choose, but....
(In my case, the Kuzma airline arm is hardwired with Cardas and terminated with bullet type RCA connectors. Though I changed all the other cable in the system, I have not changed that, though I think Kuzma offers Nordost, among others for the tone arm wire these days).

 

[DaveyF]

Isn't there a trade-off between having the flexibility of using any brand of cable between tone arm and phono stage by introducing a 'termination block' or whatever you want to call it, with additional connectors vs having a continuous run from cartridge leads to the plugs, with the limitation that you are basically 'stuck' with whatever cable is hardwired into the arm?
Granted, some (perhaps many) arm makers may let you choose, but....
(In my case, the Kuzma airline arm is hardwired with Cardas and terminated with bullet type RCA connectors. Though I changed all the other cable in the system, I have not changed that, though I think Kuzma offers Nordost, among others for the tone arm wire these days).

Your question goes to the heart of my point and question. How important is this cable from either the termination block to the preamp, or from the cartridge straight through to the preamp ( assuming therfore no termination block) ( I would presume that it is the most important run in the system and yet is seemingly the least discussed or focused upon)
Additionally what is the "preferred" method to connect to the termination block, via RCA's or DIN and why?
When I refer to generic ic's, what I am talking about is a typical ic cable from any of the usual manufacturer's. vs. a specific cable designed for phono usage only. In my current set up, I am utilizing a specific cable designed just for phono usage, this cable is terminated at both ends with RCA's and sure looks like any other ic, except it says phono on the jacket. So what is the difference between it and a regular ic?
Thoughts?

 

[Bill Hart]

Your question goes to the heart of my point and question. How important is this cable from either the termination block to the preamp, or from the cartridge straight through to the preamp ( assuming therfore no termination block) ( I would presume that it is the most important run in the system and yet is seemingly the least discussed or focused upon)
Additionally what is the "preferred" method to connect to the termination block, via RCA's or DIN and why?
When I refer to generic ic's, what I am talking about is a typical ic cable from any of the usual manufacturer's. vs. a specific cable designed for phono usage only. In my current set up, I am utilizing a specific cable designed just for phono usage, this cable is terminated at both ends with RCA's and sure looks like any other ic, except it says phono on the jacket. So what is the difference between it and a regular ic?
Thoughts?

Davey: I would assume it is just as critical if not more so. And you are right, it is often overlooked, at least on arms where you have no ability to change the cable from the termination block to the phono stage. (Just to be clear, in my case, there is no termination block, it is a straight run, and you are right, i have thought about what cable is there, but don't have the ambition to send the arm back to Slovenia, although once my system is down for move hiatus, I could). Wonder what I should consider? I think the trade-off of adding an extra set of connectors is a big one, especially at that low level of umamplified signal, so the ideal would be optimized straight run, presumably matching the rest (although there you get into another whole issue, right? Nordost for the arm, and something else for the rest of the system?) and no termination block.
I know there are aftermarket wire kits for Rega, I don't know that I've seen them for other arms, and even then, you are limited by the wire in the kit. (Not sure I'd be trusting me to do this myself anyway....).

 

[puroagave]

Your question goes to the heart of my point and question. How important is this cable from either the termination block to the preamp, or from the cartridge straight through to the preamp ( assuming therfore no termination block) ( I would presume that it is the most important run in the system and yet is seemingly the least discussed or focused upon)
Additionally what is the "preferred" method to connect to the termination block, via RCA's or DIN and why?
When I refer to generic ic's, what I am talking about is a typical ic cable from any of the usual manufacturer's. vs. a specific cable designed for phono usage only. In my current set up, I am utilizing a specific cable designed just for phono usage, this cable is terminated at both ends with RCA's and sure looks like any other ic, except it says phono on the jacket. So what is the difference between it and a regular ic?
Thoughts?

steve mccormack of the mod squad who is credited as the co-inventor of the triplanar tone arm was an early proponent of single-run and rewired arms with different din to rca/cable terminations. as you suggest it all makes a difference, Steve was a pioneer in the 'sound' of passive parts, resistors, wire and even solder. back in the day i witnessed a listening session comparing the 'sound' of cartridge clips! vdh mono crystal silver was one of the fav wires back then and i believe still used. Id say like anything else the wire can effect the sound and when you have rca connectors and their inherit contact resistance with different junctions along the way it can’t be good. look at the way miniscule signals are handled inside of an active component, they hardly pass through any connector especially one as large as an rca plug! for unamplified signals coming out of a phono cartridge id choose a high quality din over an rca plug and have a custom cable set made for din plug to preamp (rca or xlr). i dont know if michael percy is still around but he was the best in the business for custom din-rca tone arm sets.

 

[DonH50]

What makes DIN better than RCA? I do not know, am curious...

 

[rockitman]

I have two tonearms....Clearaudio Universal wired from cart pins to rca's that connect to the phono stage. I also have a Graham Supreme which has a din connector on the bottom of the tonearm. I use a Nordost Valhalla din to RCA to connect to phono pre. There are more connections with the Graham, yet it is superior in sound to the Clearaudio. IMO, it doesn't matter. However configured, it's the tonearm itself, not whether it has one wire or two with connectors that determines it's sound quality.

 

[DaveyF]

I have two tonearms....Clearaudio Universal wired from cart pins to rca's that connect to the phono stage. I also have a Graham Supreme which has a din connector on the bottom of the tonearm. I use a Nordost Valhalla din to RCA to connect to phono pre. There are more connections with the Graham, yet it is superior in sound to the Clearaudio. IMO, it doesn't matter. However configured, it's the tonearm itself, not whether it has one wire or two with connectors that determines it's sound quality.

I'm sure you're right about the tonearm aspect, however, I wonder what difference to the Graham would be evident IF it was hardwired from cartridge to preamp and no connector at a junction box.
As to the difference between RCA and DIN, I too would like to know why DIN is preferred ( assuming that it is.)

 

[Bill Hart]

I'm sure you're right about the tonearm aspect, however, I wonder what difference to the Graham would be evident IF it was hardwired from cartridge to preamp and no connector at a junction box.
As to the difference between RCA and DIN, I too would like to know why DIN is preferred ( assuming that it is.)

Davey, my guess, and it is only that, re the different connectors is that it wasn't a sonic choice, the DIN plugged right into the base of the arm usually; the termination boxes gave the convenience of using more generic cables terminated with RCA plugs. Like I said, just guessing. Bet if you found a company that made aftermarket tone arm cable using both types of connectors and emailed or called them, they could tell you.

 

[audioarcher]

I think it's safe to say that the less solder connections in the signal path the better. Especially for low output carts. If you have a choice go for a straight shot from the cart pins to the phono pre.

In the case of Rocketman's Graham Phantom I think it's overall design is overcoming the loses due to more connections. It would be very interesting if someone would bypass the wiring and wire direct on one just to see what could be gained. That would make changing arm wands much more difficult of course. I don't think the difference would be large but any gain at this level of performance is usually noticeable.

 

[puroagave]

What makes DIN better than RCA? I do not know, am curious...

its the right size connector for the job and im not a din fan except for this application. the pins and sockets are a closer match to the wire ga in question, the connection is gas tight and the + and - half of the signal is treated equally. cable designers throw around terms like hysteresis distortion, caused when the signal is broken and passes through grossly dissimilar metals, connector sizes etc.

imo, the trick way to do it is use a five pin female lemo connector instead of dual rca's at the j-box/termination box and use a male lemo terminated with the same wire in the arm with as short of length of run to the preamp inputs as possible. a lemo would also permit the best transfer to balanced xlr inputs that are showing up on some sota phono preamps.

 

[puroagave]

I have two tonearms....Clearaudio Universal wired from cart pins to rca's that connect to the phono stage. I also have a Graham Supreme which has a din connector on the bottom of the tonearm. I use a Nordost Valhalla din to RCA to connect to phono pre. There are more connections with the Graham, yet it is superior in sound to the Clearaudio. IMO, it doesn't matter. However configured, it's the tonearm itself, not whether it has one wire or two with connectors that determines it's sound quality.

theres also the connector in the graham's arm wand. im now cured from audophilia nervosa but there was a time i used to loose sleep over vexing questions like davey's

 

[XV-1]

How important are phono cables?

As important as any other cable, however the design of the tonearm will take precedence over what options you have with the phono cable.

Some things tonearms have captive, like the Linn Ekos so swapping and comparing without LP12 surgery is difficult.
As Rockitman has indicated the Phantom has a angled din connection, my Ortofon has straight din connection - so I cannot compare the tonearm cable of my Phantom and Ortofon :-(.

Changing the phono cable will definitely make a positive difference over the STK cable on a lower priced tonearm ( if you choose the right one). It will not make a demon 103r for example sound better than a dynavector xx-2.

Which one so ends better - NFI. You can't buy a tonearm with a choice of output connections. What you are buying is the choice ge tonearm designer has made.

 

[DaveyF]

How important are phono cables?

As important as any other cable, however the design of the tonearm will take precedence over what options you have with the phono cable.

Some things tonearms have captive, like the Linn Ekos so swapping and comparing without LP12 surgery is difficult.
As Rockitman has indicated the Phantom has a angled din connection, my Ortofon has straight din connection - so I cannot compare the tonearm cable of my Phantom and Ortofon :-(.

Changing the phono cable will definitely make a positive difference over the STK cable on a lower priced tonearm ( if you choose the right one). It will not make a demon 103r for example sound better than a dynavector xx-2.

Which one so ends better - NFI. You can't buy a tonearm with a choice of output connections. What you are buying is the choice ge tonearm designer has made.

Turntable, those are all good points. IMO, the fixed cable attached to the Linn Ekos is one of its major failings. With a termination block, the quality of cable can be determined by the end user.
However, it still baffles me why more cable manufacturer's don't make a dedicated phono cable. Unless the supposition is that any quality ic can be used in this position, which I still am unsure about.
( Assuming that you have a termination block that is).
To address some of the other posters on the value of the cabling from the cartridge....I can absolutely state when I replaced the stock wire in my tonearm with VDH Crystal silver litz, the difference wasn't subtle!

 

[DonH50]

The biggest impact to be had by replacing the wire in the tonearm is the change in capacitance. Do modern phono preamps allow the user to easily tweak the load (input) capacitance (and/or resistance)? I have not kept up...

BTW, of all the cables in a system, and barring major mismatches or just bad cables, I would expect the ones to the phono input to be most sensitive to change.

 

[Lee]

I have found that better phono cables between my Scoutmaster and phono stage have made a nice improvement. I'm going to try some new phono cable soon. My thinking is that the smaller signal out of the tonearm is pretty sensitive.

 

[DonH50]

The much smaller signal and much higher impedances mean much greater sensitivity to loading and noise.