PS Audio Regenerator versus Balanced Power/Isolation Transformer for Phono Stage?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Marc, my question was focused only on comparing balanced power to regeneration. What was your experience with regenerators? Did you ever compare in your system a regenerator to your Westwick?
No Ron, only Burmester 948 conditioner v balanced.
I did have an Isotek regenerator in once, like the Burmester, it somehow curtailed dynamics.
I did have an Isotek regenerator in once, like the Burmester, it somehow curtailed dynamics.
Does this mean by using balanced power I compromise safety, I have read that before. If that's the case not for me
bonzo75, different balanced power devices have different designs. The Torus is balanced on the input side. In the USA the balanced Torus must be plugged into a 240 VAC outlet. The Furman is balanced on the output side and is plugged into 120 VAC, I believe.
Thank you, Marc. That is interesting.
I think the PS Audio P10 is not criticized for curtailing dynamics. Christian would know if his dynamics are curtailed by the P10.
Not necessarily Ron.
I hated my Burmester in the end, happy to sell it to Lloyd LL21, who by all accounts really gets on with it.
I hated my Burmester in the end, happy to sell it to Lloyd LL21, who by all accounts really gets on with it.
I use two separate p5's for my source components only. They are plugged into an NCF Outlet Kit. My power amps run on a different line direct into the wall NCF'd. I would not recommend regenerators for power/current hungry amps.
I have only one main criteria for judging sound and that's "Naturalness", the rest of it is just icing and a matter of setup, room tuning etc., unlike isolation transformers that different things can happen to the sound with inverters/regenerators it's an overall affect; IME the sound always becomes less "Natural". Of course based on ones starting point, system tweaks, setup, location, tastes, regenerated electricity might be an improvement or balancing act. You have a very intricate ground network installed on your property you need to asses that first on its own before introducing anything else power related.
david
Only if you do not get a safe, well engineered product. My warning was towards people who want to go DIY, buying just the the balancing transformer.
I have the PS Audio P10. Depending on system it can affect dynamics relative to pure mains. However if the mains quality is power it improves dynamics. When debating mains each system is a different case. People should get their mains analyzed and diagnosed before picking a system. And even then they must use their ears.
The Burmester is a great conditioner if your problem is having a DC component in the mains. If so, sometimes when you use it your amplifiers seem to be more dynamic and have more power. As far as I remember, it is the only non regenerator or non transformer device that deals effectively with DC, that can cause premature saturation of power transformers.
I myself would do something completely different if I had the money... Im not sure it would work in the US...
https://www.heidenpower.com/produkt/he-acs/#product-tab2
"Lab" powersupply with power ratings up to 10000VA. 0,1Hz of the frequency specified. 100 mV of the voltage specified. 0,1° of phase.
THD is at 0,10% at max output.
Never tried with audio equipment...
But how about the new PS Audio P20 Power regenerator ?
https://www.heidenpower.com/produkt/he-acs/#product-tab2
"Lab" powersupply with power ratings up to 10000VA. 0,1Hz of the frequency specified. 100 mV of the voltage specified. 0,1° of phase.
THD is at 0,10% at max output.
Never tried with audio equipment...
But how about the new PS Audio P20 Power regenerator ?
Ron,
Sorry for the delay in getting back on.
My experience with P10 vs mains vs balanced power vs Isotek Titan conditioners covers the last 10 years. Firstly, I do not like what conditioning does. Good eqipment with well designed power supply sections should do anything that conditioners are made to do. I sold Isotek for 2 industrial balanced transformers just for my powered speakers, the sonic uplift was obvious in terms of space and air, better depth etc. When the P10 was announced I was fortunate to be able to get one at trade cost, so went ahead after using the P5 for a couple of weeks which although I thought it helped the fans were a no no for me, hence the P10 (no fans) plus more outlets (9 uk). This seemed to do a good job for the electronics, bar power amps. However, about this time last year I was becoming a bit agitated by something not being right and tried the power amps into the P10 instead of the wall, definately not the best thing to do so back into the wall they went. More exprimentation took place until I felt that the P10 was holding something back in one sense, maybe dynamics, maybe depth/solidity etc. The next move was to run long power cords to the speakers and install the 2 industrial bal units in a pretty adhoc way with outlet strips to cover the whole system, and bang, better clarity, depth, air, space and detail, much more relaxed and sort of more 'natural'. It looked awful though, so I set about designing and building something better to include all relevant safety requirements which are neccessary with symetrical output's, and spent some time testing DC filter networks to build into the design. Later development evolved by using multiple transformers of appropriate size (va) to seperate the digital, phono source and amplification stages. This was another eureka moment
.
More specifically, P10 vs Balanced. You can get a P10 on demo I'd imagine, no problem. Balanced may be more difficult to demo at home but I (as do others here) strongly advise giving it serious consideration. You should hear improved 3d image density, better detail and note decay, wider soundstaging where the speakers should sonically disappear, which is where the P10 never quite managed to work anywhere near as well. Should you try a bal unit, I would say emphatically that you connect everything to it, with just the one single connection to the wall outlet, as the single point ground ref is a big part of why they work. Like Marc says, dynamics and 'kick' should put a smile on your face
Sorry for the delay in getting back on.
My experience with P10 vs mains vs balanced power vs Isotek Titan conditioners covers the last 10 years. Firstly, I do not like what conditioning does. Good eqipment with well designed power supply sections should do anything that conditioners are made to do. I sold Isotek for 2 industrial balanced transformers just for my powered speakers, the sonic uplift was obvious in terms of space and air, better depth etc. When the P10 was announced I was fortunate to be able to get one at trade cost, so went ahead after using the P5 for a couple of weeks which although I thought it helped the fans were a no no for me, hence the P10 (no fans) plus more outlets (9 uk). This seemed to do a good job for the electronics, bar power amps. However, about this time last year I was becoming a bit agitated by something not being right and tried the power amps into the P10 instead of the wall, definately not the best thing to do so back into the wall they went. More exprimentation took place until I felt that the P10 was holding something back in one sense, maybe dynamics, maybe depth/solidity etc. The next move was to run long power cords to the speakers and install the 2 industrial bal units in a pretty adhoc way with outlet strips to cover the whole system, and bang, better clarity, depth, air, space and detail, much more relaxed and sort of more 'natural'. It looked awful though, so I set about designing and building something better to include all relevant safety requirements which are neccessary with symetrical output's, and spent some time testing DC filter networks to build into the design. Later development evolved by using multiple transformers of appropriate size (va) to seperate the digital, phono source and amplification stages. This was another eureka moment
. More specifically, P10 vs Balanced. You can get a P10 on demo I'd imagine, no problem. Balanced may be more difficult to demo at home but I (as do others here) strongly advise giving it serious consideration. You should hear improved 3d image density, better detail and note decay, wider soundstaging where the speakers should sonically disappear, which is where the P10 never quite managed to work anywhere near as well. Should you try a bal unit, I would say emphatically that you connect everything to it, with just the one single connection to the wall outlet, as the single point ground ref is a big part of why they work. Like Marc says, dynamics and 'kick' should put a smile on your face
Dear Paul,
Thank you very much for that detailed report!
I agree 100% that in theory, and in most practical installations, all components should be powered by a single balanced power/isolation transformer to minimize noise and the potential for ground loops.
Originally I planned to install a 100 amp Torus Power wall mount balanced power/isolation transformer. I decided I was more concerned about restricting dynamics if the amplifiers were on the transformer, either (a) from current draw by 2 X 1,000 watt Class A Gryphon solid-state amplifiers and 2 X 750 watt VTLs, or (b) because of a concern about the high current amplifiers being too far away from the transformer.
I know our systems draw far less current than the maximum power output ratings, but I was also concerned about this separate issue about a long distance of wire (> 25 feet) between the wall mount transformer and the amplifiers. Even without any current limitation there is a concern about having the isolation transformer too far from the amplifiers.
Admittedly these are mainly theoretical concerns. I did not do any A/B comparisons. A couple of WBF members heard systems in which they felt that either the transformer itself or the distance between the transformer and the amplifiers restricted dynamics. Conversely, MikeL has had no issue with restriction of dynamics from a wall mount transformer even with some distance between the transformer and his amplifiers.
I decided to "split the baby" and take the ground loop risk. I will be plugging all amplifiers directly into the wall, but I will be powering source components and phono pre-amplifier power supplies and turntable motor drive with a Torus Power AVR 60 BAL.
All components, including the Torus box, will be powered from the same dedicated electrical subpanel.
Thank you very much for that detailed report!
I agree 100% that in theory, and in most practical installations, all components should be powered by a single balanced power/isolation transformer to minimize noise and the potential for ground loops.
Originally I planned to install a 100 amp Torus Power wall mount balanced power/isolation transformer. I decided I was more concerned about restricting dynamics if the amplifiers were on the transformer, either (a) from current draw by 2 X 1,000 watt Class A Gryphon solid-state amplifiers and 2 X 750 watt VTLs, or (b) because of a concern about the high current amplifiers being too far away from the transformer.
I know our systems draw far less current than the maximum power output ratings, but I was also concerned about this separate issue about a long distance of wire (> 25 feet) between the wall mount transformer and the amplifiers. Even without any current limitation there is a concern about having the isolation transformer too far from the amplifiers.
Admittedly these are mainly theoretical concerns. I did not do any A/B comparisons. A couple of WBF members heard systems in which they felt that either the transformer itself or the distance between the transformer and the amplifiers restricted dynamics. Conversely, MikeL has had no issue with restriction of dynamics from a wall mount transformer even with some distance between the transformer and his amplifiers.
I decided to "split the baby" and take the ground loop risk. I will be plugging all amplifiers directly into the wall, but I will be powering source components and phono pre-amplifier power supplies and turntable motor drive with a Torus Power AVR 60 BAL.
All components, including the Torus box, will be powered from the same dedicated electrical subpanel.
Hello Ron,
I didnt use the wall type Torus because I wanted a flexibility in taking it out of equation. If you go with the wall type, try to have a way to by pass it...just incase
.Kind regards,
Tang
I agree, Tang. That's why I decided against the wall mount system, and in favor of a floor mount for everything but the power amplifiers.
Hello Ron,
I didnt use the wall type Torus because I wanted a flexibility in taking it out of equation. If you go with the wall type, try to have a way to by pass it...just incase
Kind regards,
Tang
in my system with the balanced Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel 10kva isolation transformer (with it's own dedicated ground rod), I agree it's important to have conventional power outlets available to compare directly along side the regenerated ones. which I do from time to time.
so far, it's game, set, match for the 10WQ wall panel outlets. better in every way. but to be fair, I've not upgraded my conventional direct outlets to the latest Furutech NCF stuff. the delta was significant enough in my mind back when I last compared that it was not necessary to upgrade those.
but there they sit if I need them at some point. I could always add free standing power conditioners/regenerators using those 'dirty' outlets if I wanted to. I have considered that for all my digital gear, but have not tried it.
I do have filters in the wall panel for the three outlets which have my digital and class d bass amps to prevent back feeding noise into the rest of the system, that is important.
as far as using separate free standing boxes for power conditioning/regenerating, it's a mixed bag. it certainly costs more for floor standing boxes, power cords, resonance control, etc. and the scale of the transformer is much smaller with less dynamic headroom than a wall panel 70amp transformer. but it's all about execution, and likely there are no absolutes.
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I myself would do something completely different if I had the money... Im not sure it would work in the US...
https://www.heidenpower.com/produkt/he-acs/#product-tab2
"Lab" powersupply with power ratings up to 10000VA. 0,1Hz of the frequency specified. 100 mV of the voltage specified. 0,1° of phase.
THD is at 0,10% at max output.
Never tried with audio equipment...
But how about the new PS Audio P20 Power regenerator ?
I have a small lab power supply (100watts) that I use for various experiments and they are accurate and precise...but normally they have noisy high speed cooling fans because they are undersized for the power they deliver. If you keep it in another room, then fine, otherwise...
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