In order to find the real numbers you have to sign in the paid Audiogon Bluebook - it shows accomplished sales and real values. IMHO the most important aspect is not only advertised prices, but the success of sales.
Question: How to purchase?
- Thread starter Elliot G.
- Start date
In order to find the real numbers you have to sign in the paid Audiogon Bluebook - it shows accomplished sales and real values. IMHO the most important aspect is not only advertised prices, but the success of sales.
edorr,
You're only using yourself as an example, but there are many different scenarios.
Some people might just prefer to walk into a dealer, hand him their old stuff, and walk away with new stuff, discount or not. I know I do
Of course, doing what you do has benefits, but there ARE benefits into the dealer model as well, in peace of mind, risk, and overall ease of transaction.
alexandre
I recognize that. However, I responded to the question asked by Elliot, which is about individuals' preferences. I by no stretch advocate my preference as the optimal model or in any way superior to others' preferred method for acquiring electronics.
edorr,
You're only using yourself as an example, but there are many different scenarios.
Some people might just prefer to walk into a dealer, hand him their old stuff, and walk away with new stuff, discount or not. I know I do
Of course, doing what you do has benefits, but there ARE benefits into the dealer model as well, in peace of mind, risk, and overall ease of transaction.
alexandre
Asiufy
Truth is that most dealers except a few have decent to mediocre listening rooms. The dealer of high end audio is becoming extinct and most manufacturers like Magico, Wilson, etc have listening rooms at their factory.
What better way to listen to the speaker of your choice than flying to some location where Magico, Wilson etc have a "system" they believe works best with their speaker, give it a listen and save dealer markup more than covering the cost of the trip.
This model would give you a glimpse into what is possible with the speaker of your choice.
Buying from a dealer is no guaranty the buyer is getting best synergy but just the available products the dealer was able to get and them to rationalize why his or her gear is best suited for the speakers one likes.
Of course that doesn't preclude one from buying amps, preamps etc of their choice but at least one had a starting point for comparison for the model I describe above is how the manufacturer "voices" his/her speaker. Manufacturers hate to go on the hook as to what they recommend so as not to bite the hand that feeds them yet we all know they are not buildin their speakers without electronics of choice.
As a person who has always had tremendous loyalty to the dealer model I also now realize it is no longer a viable model and the model must change both for choosing appropriately and affordability.
Elliot, I think you've hit it on the head. Less complicated products that don't require sophisticated set-up favors the direct sales model, in my opinion. But I think customer age has an impact as well. As has been noted by many others, the high end customer population is rapidly gentrifying. Most of us have considerable experience under our belt doing set-ups over the years and can reasonably do most required audio tasks at home without dealer supervision, again, if there are no overwhelming technical challenges. One further comment deserves mention, which is that support of a dealer is often transient these days due to the rate at which the brands they represent often change. How many of today's Magico dealers were Wilson dealers; VTL dealers former ARC dealers; MIT dealers former Transparent dealers or vice versa to all the above-you get the point. Dealers service what they sell. Once they no longer sell it, it's not realistic to count on them for further support of their former brands. They would naturally prefer to sell you their latest products. In this case, the direct model sure seems more attractive in the long term, doesn't it?
And quickly, to Dallas Justice, I second your enthusiasm for Scott Warren, whom I dealt with in Dallas (and even now in NJ). Great guy, excellent dealer.
Marty
I think it is good to remember that a LOT of the a'gon blow out ads are bogus. The other day I saw a pair of Wilson Alex 2's going for a song. Ad seems to have disappeared now, LOL.
I think both models have a place and I would think that many here have dabbled in each at least a few times. The varying Pros/Cons of each Model can only be determined by the end user and their needs, wants, expectations. This is different for everyone. If you're smart, you'll try to maintain a relationship with your dealer as best as you can, so when you do purchase something Direct, and it needs setup, he's willing to assist (obviously for a fee). I don't think there is one Model that is preferred for all components additions/changes.
Well I can go into just about any Wilson and/or Magico dealer and get at least 20 points off list without a hassle. Used, I think getting 50cents on the dollar is an overestimation especially with their larger speakers.
I think the biggest benefit of buying brands like Magico and/or Wilson is that when the time comes to get rid of them, they still have "some" value.
I bought (and sold) current model Avalon eidolon visions for 1/3 of list ($9k). You got to have a lot of spare cash or feeling very helpless setting up a pair of speakers buying these new from a dealer, even at 20% discount.
My point exactly. One can feel all warm and cozy that their direct-sale speakears didn't lose value, but then, nobody wants them used anyway, since they can be bought new so easily.
And Priaptor, I don't think the model itself is wrong, or not viable. Most people's rooms are also "mediocre", yet that's where the products will likely land. Having a fancy, acoustically treated room at the factory (or a dealer) is not going to help you determine what the product can or cannot do, in your house.
Partnering gear is another factor. A dealer with a wide assortment of product will be able to demonstrate how product X partners with product Y. And if you have your own particular choice in, say, amplifiers, you can always bring them to the dealer, or schedule an audition in your house, with your gear.
Sure, it can come out cheaper, in the end, to just buy blindly, and sell at a loss if the gear you bought is not to your liking (or not compatible with the rest of your gear). This is the same that happened with record stores, when CDs came out, and Internet popularised. It was just easier to buy them off the internet (assuming you're actually buying them not just downloading), blindly, and sell them back if you don't like them. What happened then? CD stores closed. Now with vinyl, people are seeing the value of actually going to a store, seeing the wide assortment in person, getting advice from the staff (or friends). So, it's the same thing, people who don't see the value in that whole interaction, will buy direct, every time. But fortunately, there are still some of us that DO value what a dealer (or record store) provides. The fact that some dealers are "mediocre", like you said, happens also with record stores (see Michael Fremer's RCD story), but in every business category, there's good and there's bad.
alexandre
Judged by used prices on Audiogon, few brands depreciate as much as Wilson. Buying wilson new, even at 20% off, is a very, very bad move financially. Having said that, if you intent to ever resell a piece, staying away from obscure brands is mandatory. I have bought stuff from such brands for 20 cents on the dollar, and am still stuck with them. Should probably donate to charity and get tax write off.
That is why I said "at least". Any person walking off the street will get "at least" 20% off on Wilson and the same for Magico and IF there dealer won't participate there are tons that will and have no issue shipping. Hence the reason I believe the "dealer" network is doomed as we move forward and why it would be in everyone's best interest to just change the model now.
As pertaining to "obscure brands" I couldn't agree more. You better like what you are buying because the day you buy it loses just about all it's value so the only "value" is that which it gives you from an audiophile point of view, which is fine if you love what it is you are buying.
Edorr,
Which specific brands of loudspeakers have you found that depreciate much less than Wilson?
Hi Elliot. I find a good dealer relationship valuable. I pay the higher price for the services that include: excellent trade-in prices on my used components, delivery and set-up, recommendations on components, in-home evaluation before purchase, etc.
I think expensive loudspeaker depreciation is somewhat related to model supersession frequency. brick and mortar dealers like new versions as it pushes upgrades. but 'old stuff' is worth less.....not that 'old stuff' is bad, but it's not current.
it's a fine line to walk for any manufacturer to determine whether to have new versions of expensive products, how owners of their products view that. you can't ever make everyone happy.
it's a fine line to walk for any manufacturer to determine whether to have new versions of expensive products, how owners of their products view that. you can't ever make everyone happy.
To be honest, my statement was probably a bit of an exaggeration, inspired by rock bottom prices seen on non current Wilson models. Wilson has fairly frequent changes of models, but current model depreciate in line with most other respectable brands. Some examples of brands that hold value a little better than most are TAD and B&W. But in general, buying speakers new is always very poor economics.
Not necessary buying from manufacturer is cheaper . I have 2 experiences where it's actually more expensive buying direct !!! Some manufacturers can be greedy . They will sell or upgrade your products at a premium ie more expensive that if they were to sell it through distributors . I m sure some direct sales manufacturers are genuine but not all. Generally I prefer to buy from some reliable & good after sales service distributors . Where I can from most distributors are not up to mark & for some products I may prefer to buy direct
Yeah, but there lies the rub. If the manufacturer is not reputable doing business directly they are just plain not reputable. The point being is that I too prefer service, however, in this day and age there is less service and more discounting. We have to face facts. With the NET pressuring dealers, forcing their profit margins down, they are less capable of having as many "demos" being foisted on them by manufacturers than they are capable of buying and are less capable of taking the hits on trade ins they were once capable of doing.
WE forget that they biggest market for manufacturers are their dealers, who are forced to buy, even at 40-50% discounts their products. So if they have to buy say a 20K speaker (and multiply that by the line the manufacturer REQUIRES them to show) at 10K, and given market forces have to sell such 20K at 15K, they have to sell at least 2 sets of those speakers to break even. Of course that doesn't include their fixed and variable costs of a store front, including rent, payroll, electric, etc as well as the cost of investment on their DEMO which basically becomes a paperweight when the company releases a new replacement. So the dealer may have to really sell 4-5 pairs of speakers to break even on their demo.
I think that is why we are seeing more "dealers" out of their homes and closing big storefronts and why only the biggest dealers like Lyric, Overture, Goodwin, etc are still in business.
Of course, we all know many manufacturers use the shows to bypass the dealer anyway.
edorr,
You're only using yourself as an example, but there are many different scenarios.
Some people might just prefer to walk into a dealer, hand him their old stuff, and walk away with new stuff, discount or not. I know I do
Of course, doing what you do has benefits, but there ARE benefits into the dealer model as well, in peace of mind, risk, and overall ease of transaction.
alexandre
ive seen customers that use their dealer as a conduit to dump their old gear saving them the trouble with flipping on audiogon etc. my dealer had a generous upgrade program, 100% of what you paid within a year towards new gear, he had no specific formula and it was on a case by case basis. he still made money and it worked out for both parties concerned provided you kept buying from him.
another dealer had a list of customers that only bought used/demo gear and would call them first when desirable trade ins came through the door, he rarely sat on used gear for very long.
I strongly support the Authorized Dealer model, and have been buying from them all my life, and sometimes used online, but never direct. Forming relationships with reputable dealers is indispensable, and has proven very beneficial over the last 30 years. When the equipment does not require set up, I shop all authorized dealers. Another THUMBS UP for Scott Warren from me too, to whom I have sent a couple of my audio friends and they have been happy as well; also MusicDirect.
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