Reference Turntable, The Step Beyond

[ddk]

Dear Tango,
The condition of these vintage arms is critical and not possible to tell by just looking at them. Setting up the VTA on the Ortofon arm is very difficult probably why the McAnna sounded analytical, could have been the wiring too. The EMT tonearm is much easier to work with. If you’re willing to modify either the tonearm’s base or cut a hole in your chassis like I did the SME 3012-R is the way to go. I’ll be back in Utah after the first and will try to send you pictures of my setup.

Its best to use a lightish record weight with the 927 otherwise the acrylic upper platter will bow, the Audio Technica TA-618 is a very good choice and the one I use.

david

 

[Tango]

Setting up the VTA on the Ortofon arm is very difficult probably why the McAnna sounded analytical, could have been the wiring too. The EMT tonearm is much easier to work with. If you’re willing to modify either the tonearm’s base or cut a hole in your chassis like I did the SME 3012-R is the way to go. I’ll be back in Utah after the first and will try to send you pictures of my setup.

Its best to use a lightish record weight with the 927 otherwise the acrylic upper platter will bow, the Audio Technica TA-618 is a very good choice and the one I use.

Good morning David,

Thank you for the tips you’ve been giving.

Maybe my writing is a bit confusing. I meant the Anna sounded dull, not analytical, when it was on Ortofon arm before the rewired. The Atlas SL on SAT arm sounds "show off" with a lot of details. But with Atlas SL now on a rewired Ortofon, it sounds less detailed and has warmer tonal balance but still very alive. The images are somehow more solid than what I hear from both Kronos and Techdas. The 927/Ortofon/Atlas is very musical. I listened to John Fahey and felt like he was really going at it on his guitar.

One thing for sure the wiring that originally came with my tt and tonearm took the life out of music.

I have one problem that I didnt say. The antiskate on this arm is difficult to adjust. I had a problem on the first song of a record. When I droped the needle it would skid into the first few milimeter of the song and then track normally. I then adjusted the antiskate to the point it no longer skid into first song but when I lift the arm I could see the cart swing to the right a little. This kind of bugs me.

About the record weight, I was just teasing Kedar. £2,000 record weight is out of my league.

Tang

 

[microstrip]

View attachment 37853

Did you shrink the LP?

I can not understand why we do not have current manufacturers of top turntables making large diameter platter players - there is something right in the fundamental physics of such systems.

 

[dcc]

Did you shrink the LP?

I can not understand why we do not have current manufacturers of top turntables making large diameter platter players - there is something right in the fundamental physics of such systems.

The Verdier Magnum has a 50 cm platter.

 

[microstrip]

The Verdier Magnum has a 50 cm platter.

Yes, but the complete system weights more than the XLFs' - around 400kg!

 

[PeterA]

Did you shrink the LP?

I can not understand why we do not have current manufacturers of top turntables making large diameter platter players - there is something right in the fundamental physics of such systems.

I suspect it has to do with footprint dimensions and rack space with outboard motors and controllers. David wrote something also about the importance of proper dimensions with regard to the American Sound turntable. I think he was referring to the height, depth, and width of the plinth and platter effecting the sound. He should elaborate more.

I agree with you that a larger diameter platter seems to be the right solution to maximize rotational inertia and the maintaining of correct speed. Perhaps it is more about cost, space and aesthetics. Tone arm designs would have to adapt also to reach the LP. Some think that long tonearm wands have their own issues with resonances.

 

[BruceD]

This is indeed great Posting--and to see such exciting TT's and references --Tang your setup is of much pleasure and envy --Kudos!-- if I may add however your comments on the 297 Arm--

I'm not certain of your ones heritage, but I've owned two versions of earlier vintage and found upon placement sounded not to my liking either!

I used them with the SPUa of course. With much ado and finally sweeping diagnosis I found to correct the deficiencies and replaced the items pictured --in both arms! allowed a whole new sonic vista to be unlocked

and the Arms performed to my complete satisfaction.

The spring VTF force was a mess

the side mount pins on one arm was badly worn--as pictured.

I presume you have checked all and sundry on these aspects mentioned--if not may pay to at some stage-.

Luv ya rig--!!

BruceD

 

[Tango]

Thank you Bruce for sharing your experiences. I am learning more and more on these vintage tt and arm. They are really not plug and play. So one cannot really judge how good they are until the learning curve flats out.

I just learnt about how to adjust the anti skate of 297 a few days ago. The adjustment is actually underneath the plinth of EMT. I also tried to adjust the VTA to get a sharper bite of strings and maybe get a bit more detail sound, but turned out not getting much of what I want and also lost rhythmic drive and solidity that seems to be a signature of this tt. I think I am too familiar with a very high def, detail sound from both SAT and Axiom. The vintage Orthofon just can’t rethrieve info from the groove as good as these modern arms. Can’t wait to try a modern arm on the 927.

Have a happy holidays,
Tang

 

[BruceD]

Indeed Tang-unless the Arm is an unmitigated jewel of find--as is the EMT TT--You will always be aware that the performance is possibly below it's 100% deliverance.

I've found the ladies at Ortofon to be especially helpful--you could dismount and pack the Arm to them for a full service /rebuild/etc?

Anyway David K our TT mentor speaker of many wisdoms--the setup is his territory --listen and follow.

While you can put a modern "super arm" on the EMT--does that follow the form and synergy of the table?--I'm sure there is maybe the

--Banana arm or another ''vintage" euro version that may fit the bill.

I've owned or heard the Arms you have(except the SAT) all are excellent-- my own observations is that there are one or two that do bring music to life more than the older

ones but my Breuer 8 memories still remain--long after the myriad of Arms I've used since.

So maybe patience and guidance will bring fruition

Good Listening:b

BruceD

 

[Tango]

Indeed, ddk and Airbearing are my google of 927.

I have no ego in following their advices which are proven successful. Yet I was born a rebel child and like to add my own twist . Following them will only equal them at best not beyond. And our audio world would be more colorful if there are 927 with other arms than the ortofon, banana and 3012R.

So, In a few months you will see a 927 with a custom Axiom as rear second arm. I have another friend who also in this forum pursuing the same path as me in putting different uber arm on his soon to come 927. If I stumble, I do do have a banana arm in stock to fall back on or I can always ask David for one of his 3012R :b.

Tang

 

[Uk Paul]

Hi Leif,
I never owned a Melco but heard them a few times in a friend's system side by side with with a Micro RX-5000. I think that it was either the 3560 or the 3533 he had and it sounded wonderful, just as good as the RX-5000 with the Melco having a bit more detail and extension in the bass. The bigger Micros, SX-8000, SX-8000mk2 and SZ-1t are sonically superior.

david

Last week I helped my friend install his Melco 3560, with FR66-s / Koetsu Onyx (Sugano). It is indescribably heavy, nearly 100kg. However, it sounds so solid and 'right', especially on piano, right up there. He bought this in the early 80's from Be Yamamura, serial number #1. I will make a new post about this and the install if anyone is interested?

 

[bonzo75]

Yes please.

 

[ddk]

Hi Paul,
Please do start a thread with plenty of pics, Melco tts are very rare and one in this condition is a big deal.

david

Last week I helped my friend install his Melco 3560, with FR66-s / Koetsu Onyx (Sugano). It is indescribably heavy, nearly 100kg. However, it sounds so solid a right, especially on piano, right up there. He bought this in the early 80's from Be Yamamura, serial number #1. I will make a new post about this and the install if anyone is interested?

View attachment 37901

 

[PeterA]

Last week I helped my friend install his Melco 3560, with FR66-s / Koetsu Onyx (Sugano). It is indescribably heavy, nearly 100kg. However, it sounds so solid a right, especially on piano, right up there. He bought this in the early 80's from Be Yamamura, serial number #1. I will make a new post about this and the install if anyone is interested?

View attachment 37901

Wow, I am not familiar with Melco. It has a striking resemblance to the American Sound. Thread instead of non stretch belt, but the platter is even indented at the top just like the AS. I like the three feet/triangular base for stability, though there are only mounts for three tonearms. And the armboards and motor even look very similar. Is that huge brass object on the left a second record weight or a flywheel? It looks like a bigger record weight.

One major difference appears to be the lack of an air bearing. I don't see any hoses. It is beautiful. Congratulations to your friend.

 

[Uk Paul]

Peter, yes, that is the second record weight, 6kg, they didnt mess about.. No air on this one, just gravity and plenty of it.. I'll try and do a write up perhaps tomorrow time permitting.

 

[airbearing]

Tango, congrats on the soldering of the Atlas into the EMT shell. I know what it means if you look at my A90/EMT approach.

 

[airbearing]

The Ortofon 297 is an excellent tonearm especially when you are using EMT carts. This wonderful table deserves a vintage design (why not with new inner cabelling which I did not go for so far). In case you are going for a heavier cart/headshell you may use an additional weight or a heavier counter weight as shown with the Neumann/RMG 309 combination.

A Fidelity Research FR-7f cart with diamond connection also needs more weight. You can mount a different counter weight (RMG 309) at the rear of the RMA 297 or you are just using this little device.

The other arm pictured is the 1st SME (the real 1st series one)!

Greetings from Saigon



www.AudioCirc.com

 

[Tango]

This morning I listened to Sarah Vaughn and Dean Martin, song for song, back and forth, switching b/w Kronos, 927and AF1. Such high resolution and definition both Kronos and AF1 with modern arms threw at me just didn’t bring about the best realism comparing to 927 with Atlas SL on vintage arm. Let’s see if I could get both high def and stunning realism with this 927 in coming months.

Tang

 

[Tango]

Once again you are generously showing me more ways. Thank you very much. I wish I could contribute back to you somehow.

Have a happy holidays, E

Tang

 

[airbearing]

You're very welcome Tang. Just survived Tembin ;-)
I am looking forward to your 14" Axiom installation!!!

Best
E.

www.AudioCirc.com