Robert Harleys 'listening room

[Elliot G.]

Ive built a whole bunch of listening rooms both in my stores/showrooms and in my home. I lived through the incredible difficult and expensive project done at Lyric in NYC( super overkill)with all kinds of "experts" and seen may individuals versions of sound rooms. If there is one thing I can say is there are many ways to do something and most of them aren't the only way or in some cases not a good way at all. I personally have found what works for me and how to do such in a reasonable time frame and at a reasonable cost.
Different speakers react differently in a room. FACT. Some speakers need more treatments in the room than others. This is not a mark of the sound quality but rather how they work, how they disburse, how the sound ways are launched, where the sound comes from all vary.
Ive listened at RH and his room works really well. His parameters I am sure are very different than Bob V's. I don't this but probably their expectations are very different as well. Neither is right and neither is wrong its just their personal choice. I personaly want to listen and be comfortable and I was that at RH and Mike L and Carlos M and Marty W and in my room. They were all different looking and all sounded really good with the gear that they have chosen. All of those rooms were tuned over time meticulously. I don't believe and in fact say this to my clients that one size fits all, that you need to choose a speaker than can work in the room you want to put it in not just how it looks or by how much it costs.
I also don't believe that a room ,no matter how well planned and built,won't require some treatment.You may hide it or see it but it needs to be there. Reflection points need to be addressed and what many call treatments are not.
When building a listening room the more things you do correctly the better the result will be. This includes the position of the gear, the seating, the placement and selection of the furniture and of course the technical aspectslike electricity, room design, size, treatment and the gear of course.
Sittting in a high backed chair against the back wall with a big glass coffee table in front kind of defeats the rest of the design.

 

[Bobvin]

...so this would be the opposite direction from the lovely @Bobvin space. And others.

It is subterranean and loaded with visible treatments. I have never measured it, but it sounds good to me. And local audio friends. Someday I'll measure it. Maybe.

The long-wall is at a 23 degree angle to the opposite wall, as structure is a semi-circular condo.

Audio in this structure is near-hopeless, and I long ago gave up on the open-floor plan audio option upstairs. However, below grade has options. And Sweetie refuses to move.

Walls are furred-out from studs with steel Z-clips...horizontal steel track, similar to the Noxon concepts previously posted. But old days, it was homosote, constrained layer, then drywall. Circa 1988.

Ceiling is "dropped" with a grid, but drywalled onto that structure. Some loose batting is stuffed in to help with HVAC/plumbing sounds. Not perfect. Not bad.

The visible treatments are mostly GIK, but I have built many DIY solutions from plans and experiments. Did I mention, Sweetie refuses to move?

And treatments are hidden too. The walls are also furred-out in places, and rigid fiberglass is hidden in sealed compartments, with finished treatments as a final layer.

Some corners have super-chunk traps. The DIY trap behind the chair is about 165 pounds, with multiple chambers and products inside. I built the quads behind the chair too; both from plans.

The drybar in back also has 8" of rigid fiberglass hidden away behind it. The circular traps I knocked off from Tube Trap pics and whitepapers.

I am posting, not just to give you guys a belly-laugh at my expense, but to show an odd alternative for folks that might have a less-than-optimum room. It is possible to be creative and develop alternative solutions that work. And most rooms would not need so much attention. This one does!

We could afford to build a gonzo room, but the structure here is not amenable to the project, so I gotta dance with the girl I brought. A solution with all this treatment upstairs, amid the art and furniture, would require a divorce attorney.

Some knarly constraints but you’ve created a nice looking space. And you’ve clearly worked on getting good sound. Well done.

I‘m not big on the measuring thing but have found an analyser iPhone app and a Qobuz pink noise track lets me get a quick glimpse of in-room response of my various speakers. Kind of fun but i don’t take it too seriously. A buddy keeps threatening to teach me to use REW for more accuracy.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...ha. I have REW. Bought the Umik2, but I dunno. I should do it at some point, but it does sound good...if you sit where I sit. That platform, BTW is framed and contains space/chambers and rigid fiberboard, so it's also a bass trap. This room evolved over a few years. Listen. Add. Subtract. Listen.

 

[Another Johnson]

When music doesn’t sound “right” to me, it’s nearly always due to problems with streaming sources. For example, this week I was disappointed with the quality of some hi res performances that had been better earlier. The degradation was in my Qobuz, Roon Nucleus, Rossini stream. So I tried Amazon, BluOS, Bluesound Node, McIntosh MDA200 … and it sounded back to great. My speculation is that either Qobuz or Roon were at the root of the degradation. But this comes and goes randomly, and seems to have its origin on the other side of my gateway. Vinyl and CD NEVER disappoint.

After a couple of nights of mediocre Qobuz Roon Rossini streaming, which drove me over to the Amazon HiRez Bluesound Node McIntosh MDA200 source, tonight Qobuz Roon Rossini is back up to snuff. All the detail is back. Since there have been NO CHANGES on my side of the gateway, and since the alternate stream via the MDA200 was solid every night, I can only conclude that the degradation was not caused by a problem with my system.

We’re all familiar with the concept of “garbage in, garbage out.” Ivor Tiefenbrun extrapolated this to his upgrade ordering as “source first.”

Most of us are streaming, at least some of the time. Many are streaming at 100%.

In my experience, once an audiophile has put together a great listening space and good system, it is streaming variables (many of which are beyond end user control) that will be the spoilers. Hundreds of thousands put into room and system can be squashed into nothingness by the unidentified gremlins messing with you from your streaming service to your isp.
This is the most exasperating part of the intangible media. A record or a CD are under your control. The digital file from a distant supplier really isn’t.

 

[Gregadd]

Much to my chagrin Tidal has good days and bad days. Friday and Saturday night consistently are the best days.

 

[picears]

...

2) my initial post on this thread was simply that it was my opinion Harley could have created a much more aesthetically pleasing room given the typical gestalt of a desert SW adobe style residence. I made that comment without knowing what the rest of his home is like, and if it works for him that is all that matters.

When I first saw the opening of that video I had similar critical thoughts of RH's choice of interior design for his listening room, given the quality (visually implied from the exterior shots) of the house.

But then a thought popped into my head that maybe RH's room should look like he has it, as it functions more than as a listening room or as a living space.

It is a display case for all sorts of products.

With a change in products over time.

Didn't RH just recently host Wilson to shoot a video there, as they placed new speakers in his room?

For example, what if a vendor wants to loan RH some room treatment product for evaluation?

Your room is very lovely, but if you were a vendor for room treatments then you would need to make a room by which you could showcase them.

 

[Gregadd]

IS SHELDONN A SUBJECTIVIST?

 

[Another Johnson]

IS SHELDONN A SUBJECTIVIST?

Clearly Sheldon has identified an inversion of W.A.S.P.

 

[Kingrex]

I was setting up for the Pacific NW Audio show today. Vendors chat it up a little when we have a chance. I was talking with a well known room accoustic crew. I asked about Roberts and some other rooms. I mentioned some of how Bobs was done. What struck me was drywall on isolation clips is a form of bass absorption. I am going to circle back in the coming days and ask what sort of absorption and is it tuned?????

This company has been studying in wall panel systems. Like Bobs. They are still a little shy. Its hard to know the outcome they say. Lots of variables. Setting devices in the room after contruction allows the owner to dial it in to their taste.

I guess Robert could have had basalt pillars or sandstone racks set to make a mood. People with unlimited resources can incorporate lots of art into their personal space. But art is a personal endeavor. Its a choice if one wants to blend their passions. Visual art may have 0 consequence in some peoples lives. Even a connection to nature seems to be absent in many people I meet. So why have a window. Especially if sonic perfection is their passion. I can't see a window helping that in any way. Windows seem to be a crooked knee in any listening room.

I think Robert made a spankin good room. I believe he also glued the ends and screwed every stud to the top and bottom plate. I didn't see if he had blocking. I would not be surprised if he did. I thought his video was entertaining. But really, it didn't even scratch the surface of room accoustics. It was a nice prod for people to take deeper considerstion into what an ideal room is. The only big miss in the video for me was no mention, or I missed, the electrical supporting it all. Audiophile Junkie cut a video series last week on Rhapsody in Texas. He got into the utility room where all the power was distributed. I still see that as a void of recognition in its importance. I have even had people say to me, a reviewer should have bad power to mimic what consumers will have in their homes. If that is the thinking, then they should have poorly designed rooms too. A good room today is $600 a foot to build. So a 20x27 room is about $325,000. I doubt there are more than a few hundred rooms in the USA as good as Roberts.

 

[PeterA]

I just watched the video. It is well done. I understand that RH wants some flexibility in room acoustics, so he has a built a room with attention to wall construction and good dimensions, and then adds mobile treatments for fine tuning depending on the gear under review. It seems like a sensible approach, satisfying his goals as a reviewer. I also think it is pretty cool that he got involved in some of the construction himself. I am curious about the floor and ceiling construction, and I would have wanted to hear something about the power delivery, IMO, the foundation of good sound. I might have also missed mention of the type of insulation in the walls.

I found a couple of things in the video pretty interesting. RH talked about the bass absorption provided by the wall construction and the damping of the various layers. He then describes the added bass absorbers in the front lower corners, starting around 19:00 into the video.

I was quite surprised at how much his voice changes in character when he speaks into the corner of the room. Listen to his words "is the" at 19:56. This effect goes on for a few minutes during this section as his head moves facing the mic and then the corner. The difference in quality is pretty big. I wonder if it is the interaction with the mic. I do not see a mic, so it is not clear if it is mounted on his shirt or on the camera. I think ideally, voices should sound fairly uniform around the room once the room has been set up.

The other part of the video I found interesting is RH's description of how to find the first reflection point on the side walls. He tells us to use a mirror, just as Jim Smith does in his book, "Get Better Sound". I would be curious to read @Carlos269 's thoughts on this topic. I experimented with TubeTraps at first reflection points and also with absorption panels. I rotated the traps to hear the effects. There is no question that treatments at this mirror location affect the presentation of the sound one hears at the listening seat. I found that I heard tradeoffs. Some aspects of the sound improved while others got worse.

Peter,
I’m glad that you asked. The key to good sound is to listen in the near field and on axis, although with line-array speakers such as my Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush this is not a requirement. By listening in the near field and on axis, your ears are listening to direct sound and any reflections and room contributions are arbitrated by your brain’s auditory system. It is really as simple as that. The whole room acoustics movement and bespoke engineered rooms are more about vanity than substance.At the end of the day it is the results that matter and as you say I have some outstanding sounding systems without any room treatments or regards of that nature.

It is all about the position and polar radiation pattern of the speakers relative to the listening position. If you recall, in the old days, a polar radiation pattern was included with the speakers, analogous to the polar response pattern of a microphone.

I think what many miss here is that most audiophiles are not qualified to determine the correct location of room treatments. Next time someone tells you that they placed room treatments to address first reflections, ask them how they determined those locations on the side walls and for them to show you the calculations or at least the formulas and methodology that were used and you will come away from that conversation feeling the very same way how I feel about this trend.

 

[microstrip]

(....) This is the most exasperating part of the intangible media. A record or a CD are under your control. The digital file from a distant supplier really isn’t.

In fact, people developing streamers or streamer software have access to tools to check all this mysterious aspects of digital files. People in that darkweb capture and store streaming content in bit exact formats. But we, the serious audiophiles must live in the audiophile darkness ...

 

[Another Johnson]

The mirror idea comes from simple ray acoustics. It is not a sophisticated strategy for analysis, and it doesn’t effectively consider wavelength issues, but it is a tried and true first cut at the problem.

The very detailed models and codes may be overly complex, but when automated with experimental feedback from the listening area, they can give you that last bit. Whether you need it or not is a different question.

 

[Another Johnson]

In fact, people developing streamers or streamer software have access to tools to check all this mysterious aspects of digital files. People in that darkweb capture and store streaming content in bit exact formats. But we, the serious audiophiles must live in the audiophile darkness ...

I deal with it by recognizing it as jitter, latency, packet loss … I can do everything in my power to keep my system clean. But I have no control over what is delivered by the isp from the service.

 

[Ampexed]

Oh nay nay… I am not of the opinion an engineered room is the final word. Every engineering solution is a set of compromises. But my room after it was gutted and rebuilt is far superior to what it was before. Compromises for sure, my budget was not unlimited. But I have also had four completely different speaker designs in the room (Wilson Alexia, Alsyvox Botticelli, Bayz Counterpoint, and Diesis Roma) and other than placement no additional tweaking necessary. And it is a warm and inviting environment. The engineer says she designs to make a room sound good, but feel good as well. And I wanted one that also looked nice (and pleased my wife!)

Fortunately for me, I am not obsessive and constantly fussing — I am about enjoying and sharing music. My room for sure sounds different from, for example, PeterA’s room. I don’t make any claim I have the “best” room or the answer to anything. But I will argue an engineered room can and should look like a warm and inviting space you’d want to spend time in. But those are my criteria, not everyone will agree.

I‘m not a photographer, so the picture below I needed to pump up the room lights to grab a morning photo — but no way I’d give up my view to chase the last degree of sonic “perfection”. Others feel differently I’m sure.

View attachment 112211

That's a really nice looking and inviting room. The high frequency horns with their high directivity will make many room reflections a moot point.

 

[Kingrex]

I was talking to the people from ASC this week at the Pacific Audio Fest. I asked about bass absorption by the drywall. He said its not so much about bass absorption. Its about damping bass reflections. In a concrete room, the bass will bounce so long the sound becomes dull and smeared. The idea of the double drywall with a polymer between them is to have the wall take that energy from the bass that is exciting it, then dissipate the energy so it stops bouncing around the room. And to stop the wall system from vibrating and emitting its own energy to the room. So, its not like its an absorber. Not in the sense of sucking down a peak of energy. Its more a way to keep the wall itself from becoming source of sound and to keep the bass from bouncing from one wall to another to another to another.

 

[Kingrex]

And I do feel Robert made the correct decisions on his design. I also went to Mike Lavignes this weekend. I asked about his walls and room. From what I hear from Mike and ASC, I would not want to build anything into my walls that I may not like. And really, have no way to judge if it too little, just right or too much. It seems a good double layer drywall with glued and screwed studs with blocking is a solid foundation. From there you can add as needed. If you did it right, you should not need to add much. The furniture you put in the room may be enough.

 

[Bobvin]

And I do feel Robert made the correct decisions on his design. I also went to Mike Lavignes this weekend. I asked about his walls and room. From what I hear from Mike and ASC, I would not want to build anything into my walls that I may not like. And really, have no way to judge if it too little, just right or too much. It seems a good double layer drywall with glued and screwed studs with blocking is a solid foundation. From there you can add as needed. If you did it right, you should not need to add much. The furniture you put in the room may be enough.

In my room, rather than double layer drywall (which is typically spec’d with some adhesive in-between) a single layer was spec’d with a layer of 3/16” mass loaded vinyl between studs and sheetrock. This accomplished pretty much what the ASC wall design is doing — damping the sheetrock layer. It also significantly reduces sound transmission through the wall, and eliminates the need for the additional stud-damping on each stud.

Many ways to skin the poor cat. I promise hanging mass loaded vinyl is no easy task - that shit is HEAVY!!!

In my room, if anything different I might have chosen to use a little less wall-wall carpet up front. But the engineered hardwood floors have an uneven surface not so good for speakers, amp stands, etc. Every project has compromises — the nice thing about working with Bonnie @ SoundSense is her algorithm accounts for these compromises. She even spec’d the thickness of the drawer faces on the album cabinet, which included the fabric on them.

 

[Kingrex]

I can see mass loaded vinyl and drywall as a similar solution to double layer with adhesive between. Maybe even better. I'm just not sure I would put the perforated wood with insulation behind it in the wall. If I did, I would want it to be more a wall cavity that was accepting a so to speak, free standing insert. A non structural change to alter it. I do find your room far more attractive and inviting as a space in the house. I would much prefer it as a living/listening space in my house. I am sort of bothered how my system commands so much presence in my living room. I would prefer a much smaller speaker and integrated all on a fancy piece of furniture.

In Roberts house as a non professional consumer, I would want a large panoramic window looking out into the desert with live plants in the room. And I wasnt kidding about a thick slab of native stone to sit the gear on. A sport living room space. And then I would bitch the window reflects and the sofa is too large and the speakers are to close to the wall.

 

[Lee]

I just watched the video. It is well done. I understand that RH wants some flexibility in room acoustics, so he has a built a room with attention to wall construction and good dimensions, and then adds mobile treatments for fine tuning depending on the gear under review. It seems like a sensible approach, satisfying his goals as a reviewer. I also think it is pretty cool that he got involved in some of the construction himself. I am curious about the floor and ceiling construction, and I would have wanted to hear something about the power delivery, IMO, the foundation of good sound. I might have also missed mention of the type of insulation in the walls.

I found a couple of things in the video pretty interesting. RH talked about the bass absorption provided by the wall construction and the damping of the various layers. He then describes the added bass absorbers in the front lower corners, starting around 19:00 into the video.

I was quite surprised at how much his voice changes in character when he speaks into the corner of the room. Listen to his words "is the" at 19:56. This effect goes on for a few minutes during this section as his head moves facing the mic and then the corner. The difference in quality is pretty big. I wonder if it is the interaction with the mic. I do not see a mic, so it is not clear if it is mounted on his shirt or on the camera. I think ideally, voices should sound fairly uniform around the room once the room has been set up.

The other part of the video I found interesting is RH's description of how to find the first reflection point on the side walls. He tells us to use a mirror, just as Jim Smith does in his book, "Get Better Sound". I would be curious to read @Carlos269 's thoughts on this topic. I experimented with TubeTraps at first reflection points and also with absorption panels. I rotated the traps to hear the effects. There is no question that treatments at this mirror location affect the presentation of the sound one hears at the listening seat. I found that I heard tradeoffs. Some aspects of the sound improved while others got worse.

Jim had me move a mirror along until we found the first reflection point. We put in two GIK panels on the left and right, added some to the front wall, and sound improved considerably.

 

[Bobvin]

No doubt committing to “built in” acoustic products has risks — many examples exist of try and fail. I believe there is more than one example of large concert halls that were re-done only to result in an epic fail. Hard to have confidence, and for sure self-modifying has benefit of tuning to ear. And there are more and more products that are aesthetically pleasing.

Fortunately, it is possible to have a view and a great sounding room at the same time.

I’d say most spaces can be made to sound pretty good without all-out acoustic design — until the volume goes up. Its when the room gets filled with energy acoustic problems become obvious. Before the remodel my space wasn’t bad at all, until I got into the mid 80db average sound level. Can the space handle the energy?