I agree.
It is. The driver is easier to drive than we (except Brad) all assumed.
Ron’s New System
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I suspect that the passive crossover clamps down the native efficiency of the ribbon on Pendragon (judging from my own 75 Wisdom/BG, which I estimate in direct input at better than 93 db efficiency) quite a bit, so a lot of amp power may wind up creating heat in that passive crossover rather than sound. However, that may also add protection as well as crossover for the delicate ribbons.
With the cooler evenings, I have put the Wavacs back on the ribbons and, oh my, I forgot what magic they render, even with all of the great SS amps of lower power I have. 15 watt 811a on the 75 inchers, the nominal 572 50 watt (probably more like 36 to 40) on the bass panel.
With their ability to elevate even micro sounds to lit up palpability, a Wavac on a flat impedance ribbon could be the next best thing to horns for classical (and that soundstage, wow).
With the cooler evenings, I have put the Wavacs back on the ribbons and, oh my, I forgot what magic they render, even with all of the great SS amps of lower power I have. 15 watt 811a on the 75 inchers, the nominal 572 50 watt (probably more like 36 to 40) on the bass panel.
With their ability to elevate even micro sounds to lit up palpability, a Wavac on a flat impedance ribbon could be the next best thing to horns for classical (and that soundstage, wow).
Which one would that be?
Not a topic for Ron's system thread, sorry.
Ron
I also recommend you to try active bi amping on your speaker bypassing internal crossover.
It wil give more headroom with transparent soundstage.
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I wouldn't necessarily recommend direct drive (would require and active crossover) since the Pendragons are a design synergy. The passives likely provide protective elements.
However, having examined my own ribbons internally, I wouldn't direct drive them with anything exceeding 50 watts. No matter what they say about power handling, I don't think those little wires and thin traces are really made for it.
The non working ones that occasionally come up for sale show blown traces, with the traces blasted off. These non working traces can be bypassed with flat copper conductive tape, but that isn't easy, either, given that the whole assembly is riveted, rather than screwed, in place in the metal cage.
Ultimate transparency might be direct drive, but that would require some rejiggering of the speaker concept.
However, having examined my own ribbons internally, I wouldn't direct drive them with anything exceeding 50 watts. No matter what they say about power handling, I don't think those little wires and thin traces are really made for it.
The non working ones that occasionally come up for sale show blown traces, with the traces blasted off. These non working traces can be bypassed with flat copper conductive tape, but that isn't easy, either, given that the whole assembly is riveted, rather than screwed, in place in the metal cage.
Ultimate transparency might be direct drive, but that would require some rejiggering of the speaker concept.
My point is to have dynamics you need the headroom
I’ve seen pics of a set of klipsh horns on dart mono blocks using 500 and over watts at peaks
here is an article on self powered woofers 900 watts peaks on dart amps.
what we like and what is true facts is rarely the same in audio. I’m not saying what ever Ron uses or likes is wrong
I am saying what we may like is not how it should be at times
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Read and wonder lol.
I’ve seen pics of a set of klipsh horns on dart mono blocks using 500 and over watts at peaks
here is an article on self powered woofers 900 watts peaks on dart amps.
what we like and what is true facts is rarely the same in audio. I’m not saying what ever Ron uses or likes is wrong
I am saying what we may like is not how it should be at times
More delectable than Swiss chocolate is Swiss audio, or, another visit with darTZeel's Hervé Delétraz
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That is if you trust the power meters presenting anything but bombast display.
Nelson Pass says he has a real power meter that measures all parameters, including current draw, not just voltage needle swings.
He said that when he has played (albeit mid\low 90's efficiency) speakers very loud for listeners, he would ask them how much power they were hearing. He said they would guess incorrectly on the high power side and would be surprised when his own real power meter showed things seldom exceeded the first watt.
Which maybe why his own creative enterprise was named First Watt.
Nelson Pass says he has a real power meter that measures all parameters, including current draw, not just voltage needle swings.
He said that when he has played (albeit mid\low 90's efficiency) speakers very loud for listeners, he would ask them how much power they were hearing. He said they would guess incorrectly on the high power side and would be surprised when his own real power meter showed things seldom exceeded the first watt.
Which maybe why his own creative enterprise was named First Watt.
It seems you have misread my post - I was addressing electrical power, not acoustical power.
But yes, I do not consider the specs on the driver as given by the manufacturer enough for any theoretical calculations. And also miss another important aspect - no data at all about the RT60 of Ron's room.
You are wisely addressing efficiency, but manufacturers and reviews quote the sensitivity and all calculations are usually wrongly based on the sensitivity, assuming 8 ohm loads.
Anyway we do not have real reliable measured data on Ron speakers, just speculation.Considering 3 db doubles the power any estimate can be highly misleading, particularly with tube amplifiers.
I am talking about estimating electrical power requirements from sensitivity and SPL drop with distance…so perhaps you have misread me?
And I was commenting that without real complete data (electrical and acoustical) all this talk is very misleading. Also since Ron is not going to measure it your estimations are just speculation.
I’ve this as well people complained there slow
They barely move wipers are a failure due mechanical issues
digital is far better if allowed to set parameters
while I’m not all on cost of of the iron man brand I’m confident he is maker who has things under control and don’t miss inform directly as some. Nelson makes great amps to have a sound some love ??
I’ve never cared for his amps but it’s always been a great experience
Thank you for the suggestion, but I am not going to go there. I do wish the built-in system had a crossover frequency adjustment control.
I am hearing an increase in transparency and in-the-room "presence" on vocals. Vocals and instruments have a greater delicacy.
Don came over briefly today and commented that he thinks the turntable sounds "quiet."
J.R. Boisclair, of WAM Engineering, has been staying with me since Tuesday night. He works 12 hour days.
He is very meticulous and patient, and measurement oriented, but guided ultimately by how it sounds in the room to himself and to his client.
I agreed that pretty much everything is fair game, and, since yesterday after lunch, J.R. has been working on speaker tower positioning. The woofer towers have been moved several times, and the panels have been moved many times. Lots of experimentation has taken place.
We ended up with the woofer towers inside of the panels! We ended up with the AVAAs flanking the listening chair like bodyguards.
The 45Hz and 65Hz room modes have been partially mitigated. A peak in the 4kHz to 5kHz range has been largely remedied.
J.R. wants me to put four foot square absorption panels on the front sidewalls by the ceiling. I will do this.
J.R. is best known for turntable set-up and cartridge alignment, but he is equally expert at room acoustics and loudspeaker positioning. I am extremely happy with his services! Plus, he's a very nice, fun, smart, normal guy.
If you have any questions about J.R.'s services or his process, please do not hesitate to ask me.
He is very meticulous and patient, and measurement oriented, but guided ultimately by how it sounds in the room to himself and to his client.
I agreed that pretty much everything is fair game, and, since yesterday after lunch, J.R. has been working on speaker tower positioning. The woofer towers have been moved several times, and the panels have been moved many times. Lots of experimentation has taken place.
We ended up with the woofer towers inside of the panels!
We ended up with the AVAAs flanking the listening chair like bodyguards.The 45Hz and 65Hz room modes have been partially mitigated. A peak in the 4kHz to 5kHz range has been largely remedied.
J.R. wants me to put four foot square absorption panels on the front sidewalls by the ceiling. I will do this.
J.R. is best known for turntable set-up and cartridge alignment, but he is equally expert at room acoustics and loudspeaker positioning. I am extremely happy with his services! Plus, he's a very nice, fun, smart, normal guy.
If you have any questions about J.R.'s services or his process, please do not hesitate to ask me.
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putting the woofer towers inside cancels wave bumps bi putting closer to the outside of the wave.
I’ll say this and it’s not a joke
Place one tower in the middle and other tower on one side
This puts you completely outside of waves looks dumb but gives you how it should sound
I know lol but it has merit on paper.
another way is moved them all more into the room this gives the low freq a place to go in standing waves
It’s why my room is 55 feet and speakers mid way
Seat 8 or 9 feet and the rest behind me
I’ll say this and it’s not a joke
Place one tower in the middle and other tower on one side
This puts you completely outside of waves looks dumb but gives you how it should sound
I know lol but it has merit on paper.
another way is moved them all more into the room this gives the low freq a place to go in standing waves
It’s why my room is 55 feet and speakers mid way
Seat 8 or 9 feet and the rest behind me
That's not really true. The speakers are fullranger crossoverless and have basic impedance essentially identical to a resistor.
It's not rocket science. Ron can tell us the distance from the speakers and the margin of error in basic calculation will be low enough to make your statement completely feckless.
