Ron's Favorite Private Rooms + Systems of All Time

[Argonaut]

It is more than that. Music genre determines speaker type for some listeners as it seems to for Ron.

Are you proposing that your CN-191 ‘s are consummate speakers for all genres ? Having owned them well before you … and I suspect before your ‘dealer’ who sold them to you , I can most assuredly attest that they are not !

 

[Ron Resnick]

Comparing a large panel system setup to 80% and a fully optimized setup of a bookshelf speaker is really not a comparison.

I agree the comparison does not make much sense. I was seeking to disprove Peter's comment that "the set up is as important as the gear."

The comparison is the same system setup to 80% and fully optimized. The difference is profound. Here is an example.

I heard a Wilson XVX system about a year ago in a large dedicated room. (35' long by 25' wide with a 12 or 13' ceiling. He had the big Boulder amp, preamp, transparent Opus cables etc. The speakers were setup by a dealer. The sound was "meh" at best.

Can you explain why, exactly?

I found the big Boulder amp and preamp and Transparent Opus cabling on Alexx V in a very familiar system to truncate harmonic information and transients, and to sound dry, bloodless and emotionally uninvolving.

If I showed pictures and a list of gear of these two systems to most people I think most would say that the system with the Boulder amp would be the system with more grip and drive but not even close.

Grip and drive are not sonic attributes that matter to me, so I'm not sure what to say here.

They would say the acoustically treated bigger room would sound bigger and more spacious.

The bigger room should sound bigger. I would hope acoustic treatment would make a room sound bigger and more spacious, and not smaller.

it would change your assessment of the importance of setup.

I think set up is critically important. I have said and written many times that I think many audiophiles have systems whose sub-optimal set up is depriving them of the opportunity to realize the promise of their expensive components.

My point to Peter was that even perfect set up is not going to endow bookshelf speakers in a small room with the believability of an elaborate system in a big room.

I also think it would also change your overly optimistic assessment that people and dealers are getting 80% of the available performance.

I think we are applying different metrics.

When you first plop the speakers symmetrically somewhere in the front of the room, somewhere in front of the front wall and a little bit inside from the side walls, and start playing the system, what percentage are you up to right there? I'm considering that rough starting position to be something like 40 or 50%, but you might be considering that to be five or 10%.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Romy the Cat in 2007 said :

“Yes, a cheep but good consumer amplifier with a inexpensive old JBL monitor, properly Macro-Positioned, will literally destroy a performance of $250.000.00 high-end installation of the installation is … against the interests of the room. Do I have to pump you up more?”

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=4432#4432

I don't know what "against the interests of the room" means. Does this mean placing planar dipole speakers against the front wall when they're supposed to be well into the room?

Does this mean placing speakers against the short wall when they are designed to be in front of the long wall?

But we can add this to our compiled list of Roman pronouncements which sound important, but which are substantially incorrect.

 

[PeterA]

I agree the comparison does not make much sense. I was seeking to disprove Peter's comment that "the set up is as important as the gear."


Can you explain why, exactly?

I found the big Boulder amp and preamp and Transparent Opus cabling on Alexx V in a very familiar system to sound dry, bloodless and emotionally uninvolving.



Grip and drive are not sonic attributes that matter to me, so I'm not sure what to say there.


The bigger room should sound bigger. I would hope acoustic treatment would make a room sound bigger and more spacious, and not smaller.


I think set up is critically important. I have said and written many times that I think many audiophiles have systems whose sub-optimal set up is depriving them of the opportunity to realize the promise of their expensive components.

My point to Peter was that even perfect set up is not going to endow bookshelf speakers in a small room with the believability of an elaborate system in a big room.

You are arguing against a position that set up is more important than the gear, but I never wrote that and do not think that.

I am arguing that you need all three for superior results. And I only brought that up because I don’t see you mentioning it in your list of favorite rooms+systems. Perhaps you’re taking it for granted and assuming that the set ups must be top quality for you to identify these specific rooms and systems. My point is that you cannot take set up for granted. It is essential.

 

[PeterA]

My point to Peter was that even perfect set up is not going to endow bookshelf speakers in a small room with the believability of an elaborate system in a big room.

Why would you try to make a point to me and convince me about something I never claimed? The room, the gear, and the set up are all essential for superior results. A bookshelf speaker will never be able to present what is possible from the very best combinations.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Audiohertz2, which of my questions are you answering with that photo?

Thats Ron no1 room pick ...

 

[Amir]

It’s very difficult for me to believe these guys can set up based on the music they choose. Sure it works sometimes, but that way if you listen to some systems set up by home theatre guys purely on measurements to watch movies, they work well on digital music too and often much better than “set up” foo fi audio systems.

Perfect speaker position has no relation to favorite music type.

 

[bonzo75]

Perfect speaker position has no relation to favorite music type.

I agree with that but that’s not what I referred to. How do you find the right speaker and position it without listening to it proper music. Unless you are buying purely on measurements and design philosophy

 

[AudioHR]

I guess it depends on how you define compentent. Setup is everything. Comparing a large panel system setup to 80% and a fully optimized setup of a bookshelf speaker is really not a comparison. The comparison is the same system setup to 80% and fully optimized. The difference is profound. Here is an example.

I heard a Wilson XVX system about a year ago in a large dedicated room. (35' long by 25' wide with a 12 or 13' ceiling. He had the big Boulder amp, preamp, transparent Opus cables etc. The speakers were setup by a dealer. The sound was "meh" at best.

This past weekend at CAF I visited a friend who has a pair of XVX in a room that is maybe 25' long and 20' wide with a tall ceiling. He used Audio Research amps, preamp and Esoteric CD stack. Transparent Opus cables. This system was fully optimized and setup by Stirling. This was a WOW system. Very compelling to listen to. Dynamics and drive! Clarity and transparency were very, very, very good.

If I showed pictures and a list of gear of these two systems to most people I think most would say that the system with the Boulder amp would be the system with more grip and drive but not even close. I think they would say the Boulder system would be quieter, with more nuance. Again, not even close. They would say the acoustically treated bigger room would sound bigger and more spacious. Again, not even close. I wish I could snap my fingers and transport you back and forth to listen to these two systems. I think it would change your assessment of the importance of setup. I also think it would also change your overly optimistic assessment that people and dealers are getting 80% of the available performance.

I am in the setup is incredibly important camp. Of course everything matters but if you don't get the setup right you won't get your moneys worth.

Interesting that you used Wilson as an example. My experience with them has mainly been at the Munich shows. "Meh" might be charitable from most of what I have heard, although a few years back the CH room which featured Wilson's sounded really, really good! I guess my point would be that if you can afford Wilson's you would be crazy not to invest in proper setup by someone knowledgeable!

 

[tima]

My point to Peter was that even perfect set up is not going to endow bookshelf speakers in a small room with the believability of an elaborate system in a big room.

It might if you're playing girl and guitar music.

 

[tima]

I don't know what "against the interests of the room" means. Does this mean placing planar dipole speakers against the front wall when they're supposed to be well into the room?

Does this mean placing speakers against the short wall when they are designed to be in front of the long wall?

It probably means positioning speakers inappropriately to what the room has to offer. But I think you knew that.

 

[AudioHR]

I never use show demos to judge unless explicitly commenting on show

True enough but some exhibitors manage to get descent sound out of their system. While others, no matter the presumed merit of their system just can't get things together. While I would make no final judgement it does make one wonder.

Sometimes it is something as simple as a desensitized disc jockey playing everything to loud. Especially bad in thin walled venues.

 

[AudioHR]

I have worked for a long time to set up my new speakers optimally. Yes, I got good sound relatively quickly, but there were still gains to be had (and I'm not certain that it's completely done yet either).

There is no way some expert can come in and set up things perfectly in two days, especially in a room that is as difficult as mine (even an industry designer who visited found my room surprisingly difficult, especially in the bass). Yes, they can be faster than me, but to get to the level of fine-tuning where I am at now is impossible in a few days. You have to actually live with the system, get to know the sound in the tiniest detail based on a good number of recordings of very different music, which takes time, know exactly what *you* want per your own personal taste, and in the process tweak here and there accordingly.

Also, I needed to acquire extra acoustic treatments just for the new speakers, change the amp stand etc., which are all tools and procedures that would not be available to an external set-up guy during a short visit.

Have to agree with you, through trial and error we become more knowledgeable and can become experts in our own environment. Some new learning or advice along the way is not likely to be harmful though.

 

[tima]

No 1

Great Zot, is that an OMA K3?

 

[bonzo75]

Great Zot, is that an OMA K3?

So MF’s was shifted over to JH, as MF went esoteric?

 

[bonzo75]

My point to Peter was that even perfect set up is not going to endow bookshelf speakers in a small room with the believability of an elaborate system in a big room.

A well set up Devore orangutan with NAF 2a3 sounds much more believable than XVX, Rockport etc.

It doesn’t sound close to trios, dual FLHs, etc

 

[tima]

So MF’s was shifted over to JH, as MF went esoteric?

There may be only one of them. Fremer's was the prototype iirc. I had a sense he was not as enthusiastic about it as he was the Continuum.

 

[PeterA]

So MF’s was shifted over to JH, as MF went esoteric?

Fremer’s OMA K3 was spray painted black and looks like a work in progress. The one in this photo looks silver.

 

[morricab]

Speaker Type for specific Genre and playback levels absolutely ..

Including sub genres? Man, that's a lot of speaker systems...

 

[Al M.]

Have to agree with you, through trial and error we become more knowledgeable and can become experts in our own environment. Some new learning or advice along the way is not likely to be harmful though.

Yes, I had productive advice from my speaker manufacturer and from friends during set-up..