bonzo75, Are your comments assuming the right size speaker for a given room, or are they based on too much speaker for a small room? I would be thrilled with a room the size of Ron's, but I have not heard such large speakers before. Based on my limited experience with these large, four tower, systems, I think I would tend to prefer a smaller system if the room is not large enough to handle the speakers, and or if it could not be adequately treated. I have heard small speakers in large rooms, and large speakers in small rooms. Proper treatment is very important and can vary tremendously. I have always preferred smaller speakers in larger rooms to the opposite. But I have not heard the speakers which Ron is considering, and if they could be made to work in his room, with the proper treatment, the added impact, extension and sheer scale, would perhaps change my mind, and I would think especially with large scale, complex music, which Ron listens to on occasion.
Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
bonzo75, Are your comments assuming the right size speaker for a given room, or are they based on too much speaker for a small room? I would be thrilled with a room the size of Ron's, but I have not heard such large speakers before. Based on my limited experience with these large, four tower, systems, I think I would tend to prefer a smaller system if the room is not large enough to handle the speakers, and or if it could not be adequately treated. I have heard small speakers in large rooms, and large speakers in small rooms. Proper treatment is very important and can vary tremendously. I have always preferred smaller speakers in larger rooms to the opposite. But I have not heard the speakers which Ron is considering, and if they could be made to work in his room, with the proper treatment, the added impact, extension and sheer scale, would perhaps change my mind, and I would think especially with large scale, complex music, which Ron listens to on occasion.
My approximations say that it's possible to have 6' width (the min for any stereo) between the speakers if the room is 20'. It's right on the cusp of size. With 25' it should be easy to keep 3' distance from wall and be able to increase inside width a foot or two.
Hey Ron, Bonnie is in process now of modeling our newly designed space. I'm expecting her work completed on Monday. When she came for initial measurements, she told the designer to go ahead and have free reign, she'd be able to make the room sound good. My room is a little longer, a little narrower, and a little shorter than yours, and it too does not close off to the rest of the house. The new design uses fabric walls and curtains—the fabric will hide whatever acoustic panels are used. Even with a big window behind and between the speakers, Bonnie said she'd have no problem. (She said she could work around one less-than-optimum surface.)
Depending on how you want the room to look aesthetically, a quality interior designer, combined with Bonnie, and I'm sure you can create a most inviting space for much less than your cost just to do the extension.
I don't remember if Bonnie has already made a site visit to you?
Depending on how you want the room to look aesthetically, a quality interior designer, combined with Bonnie, and I'm sure you can create a most inviting space for much less than your cost just to do the extension.
I don't remember if Bonnie has already made a site visit to you?
I have not yet had Bonnie over because the room still has a lot of dry wall missing. No interior designer is needed here. My aesthetic is "high-end audio contemporary," so I do not have any limitations there. : )
I do not presume to be an acoustical designer.
OTOH I do have some hands on room tuning experience. and my opinion is that hanging fabric (which I tried) tends to deaden the sound of a large space like you have. your space is closer to mine than to Steve's in terms of cubic feet. when you have big powerful speakers in a smallish space then you have to control reflective energy to allow for higher SPL's....and hanging curtains might be the answer. remember that a hanging fabric will absorb sound across a wide spectrum of sound (think--clothes closet).
my solution to controlling slappy-ness has been to use fabric attached directly to the solid wall. this does eliminate high frequency reflective hash and distortion, but does not alter the tonal response of the room. and it's dirt cheap and super easy to try in various places. I spent 6-7 months experimenting before I was satisfied. and when I discovered where the fabric made the most difference I was flabbergasted. it's logical looking back now, but something that I would have never guessed.
once you lose musical energy in a room that size you can't get it back.
it's a matter of controlling reflections without altering the tone or losing energy.
so just be cautious of a plug and play solution. I understand that it's tempting to just throw money at it and delegate the process. it's your ears that need pleasing. maybe when/after you hear how that works in my similar size room you might appreciate my perspective.
your room might end up being just fine in it's current shape and size assuming adjustable speakers and carefully treated surfaces.
Last edited:
Pendragon, which can take up to 4' width per side or so from what I can tell. Sadly the specifics of them aren't exactly fully correct in the pdf. Their height is listed as too low, and they seem to list the two towers as the same width, which isn't true. The most important thing is the full range towers have enough space from the walls.
It might be worth the trial of having the subs on the inside, so long as the full ranges can keep 3' min distance from any wall. There's a few photos floating around of people doing that.
It may end up looking imposing, sort of like Steve's, but so long as correct distances are there it can work. The overall volume of space seems fine for larger speakers to me, it's more of a physical placement problem you're butting up against. IE you wouldn't be able to fit monster horn speakers even if your actual sitting distance and air in the space was ok. But you've just listened to a number of large speaker towers so you might have different feelings about the space particularly when you bring home the realization of integration of seating as such into the equation. I think you'll be fine. In fact you'll probably have a fair bit of room behind you (listening position) if the 25' is the length. You can't sit too far back if the fullranges are on the inside. If they're on the outside you may be able to get back a number of more feet. That's my prediction.
Last edited:
My point is that if your room/speaker combo has issues, putting costly treatment won't help you much - it will improve things certainly, but more often than not unless in rare cases of expert hands, it will create some negatives. In which case, best option is to have minimal treatment of carpet, first/second reflections, some diffusors, corner bass traps will help via really expert hands are required, get smaller speakers, and add DRC. A really good room should be able to handle orchestral crescendos without overloading - which treatment in small rooms with average to big speakers can't manage, IME, so I would rather spend for basic treatment in such rooms instead of super expensive, and add DRC. In most rooms I feel like reaching for the remote on the crescendos
I did an extensive dedicated room for myself , a largeish 7x9m x2.4m room .. approx 21 x 27 x 8ft and I built a room within a room inside ..barring the floor
at any rate , I had 4 or 5 acousticians at my house..not one agreed with what the others said..
I soon realised the best bet was to go it alone
There are a ton of resources on the net and elsewhere
Ron ..my advice is to go it alone....
You have to have an end goal ... what sound are you looking for
If you want the wall of sound immersive experience.. you need to design for a slightly north of neutral in terms of liveliness
If you like small scale intimate recordings , you need to design deader...
You also have to understand the room is actually 2 rooms , a resonator for the bass and a reflector for everything else
Furthermore you need to establish a listening position or general positioning area
My approach was to aim for symmetry where I was to place my speakers
I listen at extreme volumes ..lifelike..and like stuff like electronica .. I want the all immmersive experience but I didnt want to the rest of the house to vibrate either
I did not want my room to look like a dealers salon , so opted for quite a few hidden treatments
I clad all my walls with slotted and pierced acoustic panels , all on battens , with rockwool in the gap.. looks like wood panelling
Tore my ceiling down , used 12mm acoustic solid board , filled gap with rockwool
Windows and sliding doors that were not used were replaced with glass brick
floor is concrete .. laminated wood with acoustic underlay , lots of persian rugs atop it
All windows have heavy wooden slatted blinds and you can control reflections and diffusion by varying the angles of the slats
So that was for the room itself.did it all with contractors etc...
The cost was under $5000
The walls act as both diffusers and absorbers and are still fairly lively. they isolate the room and make it soundproof and act in a way like bass traps
do not worry too much about room dimensions .. you can overcome less than ideal
Extra treatments are tube traps and flat traps stradeling all corners , artwork on the walls to change HF absorption
Broadband panels behind me
As to bass .. DSP is the answer .. I use 4 subs to do the room node busting
The room is quiet when you enter ..tho not dead.. I have the G1's which are large speakers .. but i would easily be able to accommodate pentdragons it sounds god at any level and does not overlaod at extreme levels
I can micro tune both the room and the sound to my taste
And finally you have to remember there is no universal truth as to your taste being the same as anyone elses , so design the the room to suit yours
at any rate , I had 4 or 5 acousticians at my house..not one agreed with what the others said..
I soon realised the best bet was to go it alone
There are a ton of resources on the net and elsewhere
Ron ..my advice is to go it alone....
You have to have an end goal ... what sound are you looking for
If you want the wall of sound immersive experience.. you need to design for a slightly north of neutral in terms of liveliness
If you like small scale intimate recordings , you need to design deader...
You also have to understand the room is actually 2 rooms , a resonator for the bass and a reflector for everything else
Furthermore you need to establish a listening position or general positioning area
My approach was to aim for symmetry where I was to place my speakers
I listen at extreme volumes ..lifelike..and like stuff like electronica .. I want the all immmersive experience but I didnt want to the rest of the house to vibrate either
I did not want my room to look like a dealers salon , so opted for quite a few hidden treatments
I clad all my walls with slotted and pierced acoustic panels , all on battens , with rockwool in the gap.. looks like wood panelling
Tore my ceiling down , used 12mm acoustic solid board , filled gap with rockwool
Windows and sliding doors that were not used were replaced with glass brick
floor is concrete .. laminated wood with acoustic underlay , lots of persian rugs atop it
All windows have heavy wooden slatted blinds and you can control reflections and diffusion by varying the angles of the slats
So that was for the room itself.did it all with contractors etc...
The cost was under $5000
The walls act as both diffusers and absorbers and are still fairly lively. they isolate the room and make it soundproof and act in a way like bass traps
do not worry too much about room dimensions .. you can overcome less than ideal
Extra treatments are tube traps and flat traps stradeling all corners , artwork on the walls to change HF absorption
Broadband panels behind me
As to bass .. DSP is the answer .. I use 4 subs to do the room node busting
The room is quiet when you enter ..tho not dead.. I have the G1's which are large speakers .. but i would easily be able to accommodate pentdragons it sounds god at any level and does not overlaod at extreme levels
I can micro tune both the room and the sound to my taste
And finally you have to remember there is no universal truth as to your taste being the same as anyone elses , so design the the room to suit yours
Rodney,
You are reporting something I have written several times - in small room acoustics experts disagree in fundamental aspects and the next one most of the time disagrees with the previous one. Although acousticians designing professional rooms (studios, mastering rooms or recording venues) or home theaters seem to have a reasonable common standard, such think does not exist for rooms targeted to the high-end. This aspect can be very discouraging for consumers.
From my very limited experience, for high performance (sorry to say most of the time, large and expensive systems) the designer should create the acoustics after the equipment has been selected. Fortunately I have a separate room I can tune myself, but Soundlab's, Wislon's or Aida's needed a completely different disposition of RPG panels and membrane tube traps.
Going alone with net advice is a very risky business, mostly because the information is very contradictory. My approach was similar to yours, although our preference list is very different. It can take a long time and many mistakes before getting anything listenable - it took me five years fiddling with RPG panels, membranes, fibberglass, drywall and measurements before I was happy with my room.
If I lived in a country with many acousticians I would look and their portfolio and try to listen to how many of their rooms as possible - something seldom possible, as owners wisely are not wanting to host unknown people.
Just my two cents.
Last edited:
Dear Mike,
Thank you for your post. You know I always appreciate your thoughtful, wise and experience-based advice!
Are you saying that drapes lined with an acoustic material alter the tonal balance more than if that same acoustic material simply were attached to the walls? If yes, why would this be?
Of course there is no substitute for hearing how a room "sounds" with the acoustic treatment, whatever it may be, completed.
I have three factors which make me think I would be happy with a slightly more damped room than you like.
1) My greatest musical interest is vocals with acoustic instrument accompaniment. For some reason I feel that this kind of music does well in a room which is slightly more damped than neutral.
2) My listening room has an open side to the kitchen, with a big refrigerator. Since my listening room is not an enclosed, self-contained space I feel there is some benefit to me to having the acoustic treatment also serve the function of insulating the listening room from external noise. I'm inclined to go a little bit heavier on the sound absorption because of this. I think the acoustic drapes would do a good job retarding the intrusion of external noise.
3) Completely subjectively, I find that I just like rooms that are noticeably quiet. I think some people would find Steve's room over-damped, but I actually like it.
Thank you for your post. You know I always appreciate your thoughtful, wise and experience-based advice!
Are you saying that drapes lined with an acoustic material alter the tonal balance more than if that same acoustic material simply were attached to the walls? If yes, why would this be?
Of course there is no substitute for hearing how a room "sounds" with the acoustic treatment, whatever it may be, completed.
I have three factors which make me think I would be happy with a slightly more damped room than you like.
1) My greatest musical interest is vocals with acoustic instrument accompaniment. For some reason I feel that this kind of music does well in a room which is slightly more damped than neutral.
2) My listening room has an open side to the kitchen, with a big refrigerator. Since my listening room is not an enclosed, self-contained space I feel there is some benefit to me to having the acoustic treatment also serve the function of insulating the listening room from external noise. I'm inclined to go a little bit heavier on the sound absorption because of this. I think the acoustic drapes would do a good job retarding the intrusion of external noise.
3) Completely subjectively, I find that I just like rooms that are noticeably quiet. I think some people would find Steve's room over-damped, but I actually like it.
Last edited:
That is all interesting Rodney. Thank you for sharing your acoustic treatment development experience.
I completely agree. The real issue is that way too many "audiophiles" will not touch any kind of DRC with a 400 foot pole. And they all have their (audiophile) reasons. When I was in the business of installing digital room correction systems (that were no where near as effective as some of those that are available today) maybe 2% of the hundreds of rooms I was in did not get any significant audible (and measurable) benefit. It made absolutely no difference if the room had treatment or not, although room treatment was and still is the best, and in my opinion, a necessary first step.
The ceiling in my listening room is 14 feet high. The three-sided acoustic drape system I am envisioning (covering the side walls and the back wall) would hang down from a height of 9 feet. Above the 9 foot level, up to the ceiling, there would be no acoustic treatment of any kind. About two-thirds of the floor will be covered with carpet, above an acoustic material carpet pad.
I think lining the three walls with drapes the entire height up to 14 feet would leave the room way too absorptive. I think drapes lined with acoustic material for the first 9 feet from the floor would control reflections and achieve the slightly more damped than neutral result I want.
Also, and I should have reminded all of you of this, my listening room is not a new room for me. Previously my entire stereo was set up and working well in this room with ASC Tube Traps in the corners and some Tower Slims. So I have the benefit of knowing exactly how this room sounds with my prior stereo system. With that experience in hindsight which, I think, realized a "neutral" acoustic result, I simply am trying to achieve a slightly more absorptive result than I had originally. I think drapes on three sides for the first 9 feet of the room should achieve this more damped result.
I think Mike would find this result slightly over-damped; Steve would find this result slightly under-damped; and I am hoping I will find it Goldilocks "just right."
PS: The nice thing about movable drapes is that I can open them and close them at will, increasing or decreasing the absorption as the music changes, the equipment changes or my subjective preference changes.
I think lining the three walls with drapes the entire height up to 14 feet would leave the room way too absorptive. I think drapes lined with acoustic material for the first 9 feet from the floor would control reflections and achieve the slightly more damped than neutral result I want.
Also, and I should have reminded all of you of this, my listening room is not a new room for me. Previously my entire stereo was set up and working well in this room with ASC Tube Traps in the corners and some Tower Slims. So I have the benefit of knowing exactly how this room sounds with my prior stereo system. With that experience in hindsight which, I think, realized a "neutral" acoustic result, I simply am trying to achieve a slightly more absorptive result than I had originally. I think drapes on three sides for the first 9 feet of the room should achieve this more damped result.
I think Mike would find this result slightly over-damped; Steve would find this result slightly under-damped; and I am hoping I will find it Goldilocks "just right."
PS: The nice thing about movable drapes is that I can open them and close them at will, increasing or decreasing the absorption as the music changes, the equipment changes or my subjective preference changes.
Last edited:
the air behind the fabric acts as a spring. the fabric deflects with the air pressure and reflects back a different mid-range frequency. adding more mass to the fabric (acoustic material) will deaden even more. when the fabric is attached against a solid wall there is no deflection and only the higher frequencies (that can confuse detail) are attenuated by the surface texture. it's easy and cheap to test for yourself.
Steve's room is half the cubic feet or yours or my room. he needs absorption to deal with those large speakers in that space. but no doubt there is some tonal shifting going on. once you do 'warm up' a room then you have a non-linearity which must be balanced. it's a slippery slope which should, if possible, be avoided. one can always add absorption any time. but to start off with it unless absolutely necessary I think is a mistake.
buy your gear. listen. then adjust. acoustics are not predictable enough to invest in some theory and then fix it later. unless you can tear it out completely and test that you won't know where you started.
last year when I was experimenting I went to Home Depot and spent about $250 on curtains and rods and put drapery over the wall behind my speakers. 36 hours after moving it around I tore it out and returned it. dead, dead, dead. it did some nice things but the life was gone.
the voice of much experience.
good luck.
you ought to hear the quiet in my room. but also the speed and live-ness that come from linearity and agility. excess absorption will slow down the flow. it gets mushy. and until you hear it alive you will never know what you are missing.
that side room will bleed off musical energy......which with lots of drapery you will not have in excess. you want balance.
it's all relative. you need to hear a reference that 'get's it' in a room similar in size to yours.
Last edited:
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I believe its doing what needs to be done to tame the room and get the best room response. Having worked with an acoustician ad looking at all possibilities that was the best way for me to go. What I can say however Mike is that my room measures reasonably flat which is quite a feat to achieve in that room with those speakers. As Ron points out when the music genre dictates I open my curtains. BTW I am not all absorptive at all as I have diffusion at the front and rear walls and some along the right side wall. This plus 11 Helmholtz resonators in the ceiling sorts out all the issues. I have no complaints
Steve,
I was in your room, heard it, and liked it a lot. I don't doubt anything you say as far as measurements.
no room is flat nor would we want it to be perfectly flat. we want it to sound as good as it can and allow the music to be the way each of us might desire.
my point with Ron is only that if he starts out with a bunch of well intended curtains, he will never know where is is at....he will have delegated his musical flavor to the designer. sure; he can pull the curtains to the side and see what that does; but those curtains will still be absorbing sound even if they sit on the floor.
before he goes down the acoustical design road, (1)choose the gear and listen. (2)try some cheap things. (3)get a handle on a base line and (4)see what great things might be happening that he likes.
then step up into whatever direction that takes him where he wants to go with the knowledge of where he has been.
and in the meantime if he finds a sound that he likes he can use that reference to guide him.
Kumbaya Time
>well ... almostSpeakers radiation patterns/directivity with frequency are very different. It is dawning on me that the sound of speaker is very dependent of the way the speaker radiates in the room above the Schroeder frequency in most room anything >500 Hz and how the directivity varies with frequency. I was for the longest time of he advice of in room treatments and be done, just drop any speakers in, not anymore.. It seems to be speaker dependent to a large extent.
Of course I would go alone
and I have no qualms that different acousticians see things differently .. We would not expect electronics or speakers deisgners to see things the same way why would acousticians? You see, we still have (minor) point of disagreements... Oooof! All is well
Similar threads
