Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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I think this is excellent advice, Mike. One must both know what sound he has and what sound he wants to have. I have the sense that Ron knows where he wants to go because he knows what music he prefers and has embarked on this journey to hear various systems. He seems to know what he wants his music to sound like. He has written that he also knows what the room sounds like with his former system. The challenging thing is that the new system will sound different in that same room. Getting to know that sound well is important before knowing how to improve it. The issue is that this is difficult to do when operating at the scale and scope of a major room renovation. It is a question of how much does one know before the room is designed.
Ron seems to be closer to where you were before you built your dedicated room, though his room already exists. Once you had your room built and listened to your various system changes, the room acoustics and treatments, and components, changed regularly after that, in tandem, to get you to where you are now. It seems to have been a process of experimentation over time.
My situation is far more simple, as my room is fixed, and I don't have the flexibility of budget or space that you two have. But, I have found success with a clear understanding of what my system and room sound like, combined with knowing what I want my music to sound like based on specific references that I had heard. Only then did I make very slow and deliberate individual changes over time with a lot of listening in between. I continue to do so, learning all the time.
I appreciate and respect your approach because I think you follow a similar methodical approach based on your high level of experience and knowledge. And you seem to take it one step at a time.
I think Mike's advice is excellent and correct on all counts.
I will have Bonnie measure the room but I will not commission any acoustic treatment until I live with the system in the room for a while.
I will have Bonnie measure the room but I will not commission any acoustic treatment until I live with the system in the room for a while.
Hello Ron, thanks for sharing your journey. I've been enjoying following this thread and your progress.
I had one thought that came to mind in regards to dealing with that support/pillar located behind your left ear while at the listening position. I wonder if you were to build up the face of the pillar closest to your ear so that it formed a triangle of sorts. In other words, having the sharp angle facing the speaker end of the room. Maybe in doing so it could help disperse any build up of sound that could occur near your ear. I would like to think this may be better than a flat surface but I've certainly been wrong before
Just a thought
Ninja Edit... Maybe a better description on the pillar mod I attempted to explain would to make it look like a "V" with the pointy end facing the speakers.
I had one thought that came to mind in regards to dealing with that support/pillar located behind your left ear while at the listening position. I wonder if you were to build up the face of the pillar closest to your ear so that it formed a triangle of sorts. In other words, having the sharp angle facing the speaker end of the room. Maybe in doing so it could help disperse any build up of sound that could occur near your ear. I would like to think this may be better than a flat surface but I've certainly been wrong before
Just a thought
Ninja Edit... Maybe a better description on the pillar mod I attempted to explain would to make it look like a "V" with the pointy end facing the speakers.
Thank you for this idea, cjf. I am having trouble picturing what the triangle would look like.
The wall behind the listening position, which includes this column, has always been covered with 4' X 8' ASC-style sound absorption panels. My plan is simply to keep the sound panels covering the wall and the column and move the listening chair 4 feet away from the back wall.
The wall behind the listening position, which includes this column, has always been covered with 4' X 8' ASC-style sound absorption panels. My plan is simply to keep the sound panels covering the wall and the column and move the listening chair 4 feet away from the back wall.
Thank you for this idea, cjf. I am having trouble picturing what the triangle would look like.
The wall behind the listening position, which includes this column, has always been covered with 4' X 8' ASC-style sound absorption panels. My plan is simply to keep the sound panels covering the wall and the column and move the listening chair 4 feet away from the back wall.
The wall behind the listening position, which includes this column, has always been covered with 4' X 8' ASC-style sound absorption panels. My plan is simply to keep the sound panels covering the wall and the column and move the listening chair 4 feet away from the back wall.
Ron,
Do you know if Bonnie will carry complete simulations of your room? I have read in a french board that some modern acousticians question the absolute validity and reliability of measurements in small rooms, and prefer to work mainly on simulation, including the complete detailed geometry and materials of the listening room. However, they use measurements to check the evolution and effects of their treatments.
Best room acoustics heavily depend on the speaker, I've never heard Focals sound as good as they did in Boulder Amplifier's HEAVILY damped/absorptive room. They tried Wilsons in the same room and apparently they sounded bad, way too dead. Horns and controlled dispersion speakers are also much different vs conventional dynamic speakers. And there's a lot of leeway for personal preference.
I have a smaller room but have high ceilings, around 14ft, and it needed some absorption but much less that you might think, especially with my horn speakers.
I have a smaller room but have high ceilings, around 14ft, and it needed some absorption but much less that you might think, especially with my horn speakers.
I am inching toward this point of view. Very new to me , I must say, more research will be conducted. Intent to audition horn and CD designs in the next few months.
Hello Ron,
Maybe this rendering below will help visualize what I was referring to. Its probably best to think of this as more of an aerodynamics type of modification to the column face. I was thinking that maybe something like this could be accomplished with something as simple as drywall or even with a bit of mud to create the "V" shape out of the face of the column behind the listening position. It may even look kinda cool verses a flat column.
Thank you very much for taking the time to create that rendering! I appreciate it!
And now I understand perfectly what you wrote originally!
My acoustic consultant suggested this curved absorber solution. I wonder how the sonic results would differ between the triangle and the curve?
View attachment curver absorber.pdf
(The room length is 25' not 29'.)
And now I understand perfectly what you wrote originally!
My acoustic consultant suggested this curved absorber solution. I wonder how the sonic results would differ between the triangle and the curve?
View attachment curver absorber.pdf
(The room length is 25' not 29'.)
I think in the end with some creativity, that pillar could end up being quite a cool feature. it forces you to be creative no doubt, but with that wall (be it triangle or curved), the question is what you do with the front facade (treatments, etc) that would benefit the sound going up over your head and bouncing back...but from a 'home perspective', what would you do on the OTHER side of that wall? A wet bar, cool uplighters from the floor up the column when you turn room lights down low, you could hang art on either side.
People might think you put it there on purpose. One would be surprised in custom homes how many times 'features' are actually there to hide structural elements.
People might think you put it there on purpose. One would be surprised in custom homes how many times 'features' are actually there to hide structural elements.
No problem Ron,
Looking at the .pdf drawing did the acoustic consultant say if the curve would block most of the window area behind the listening chair? At least from the drawing it looks like they were thinking of hiding the column inside the curved area but I wonder if increasing size of this obstruction (the column itself) to an ever larger obstruction despite the treatment aspects of it would end up doing more damage?
The column is an interesting challenge to overcome but I'm sure it will get worked out one way or the other
No problem Ron,
Looking at the .pdf drawing did the acoustic consultant say if the curve would block most of the window area behind the listening chair? At least from the drawing it looks like they were thinking of hiding the column inside the curved area but I wonder if increasing size of this obstruction (the column itself) to an ever larger obstruction despite the treatment aspects of it would end up doing more damage?
The column is an interesting challenge to overcome but I'm sure it will get worked out one way or the other
Ron,..you've had beautiful setups with great gear at each step of the way; it's also good to read about 'your journey' and microstrip's with all the pictures he posted. How is the project turning out for you? Do you have any experience with Vicoustics offerings or are you going a different route? Enjoy!
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If less dead and more dynamic is what one is after I would highly encourage rethinking the de facto standard method of bass traps in every corner and floor to ceiling. It's quite common that 1 or more corners have no low freq "boom" issue and removal of bass trap(s) actually improves dynamics and sound less dead. You can measure before and after and of course, listen. I'm shocked how many rooms done by acousticians pack every corner floor to ceiling when I'd bet it's not warranted (unless it's a small room with larger speakers, which is a wreck in and of itself. Also, I forgot who made the comment paraphrasing - "I'd rather hear small speakers in a big room vs. the opposite", I wholeheartily agree. All our rooms are small compared to most live concert venues, so packing 2: 6' giants in a room, say =<2K cu' is a compromise at best if you want true live concert levels that don't make your head rattle.
I am glad you are enjoying the journey, too!
The project is dead in the water until I am able to make some progress repairing the listening room.
I am not familiar with Viscoustics.
Ron - I would try and avoid any reflections off column or screen as they will be the worst in the room - similar to triangle proposal by cjf but would add a dummy to ensure symmetry and perhaps add bass and mid absorption as low frequency wont see the angle - similar to this sketch
diffusion will create phase issues so redirection or absorption are the go
cheers,
Phil
diffusion will create phase issues so redirection or absorption are the go
cheers,
Phil
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