Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[DaveC]

Residential is really single phase, but it's run in two 120V legs of opposite polarity, in the same way two 60V legs make 120V in balanced power systems... Commercial is three phase where the phases are offset 120 degrees and have different voltages wrt ground/neutral and are typically 208 or 480 volt.

I would not compromise so much on running electric power just to get your tt in a different room. Maybe build a little enclosure/shed for it, but the different room thing is really a problem if it requires so much wire.

 

[microstrip]

Ron,

There is no universal recipe - for example if your equipment is properly balanced then noise induced by ground loops is not a serious issue and perhaps the benefits of having separate feeds will overcome the short ground paths. When analyzing real cases remember that electrical noise is induced by the magnetic flux variation that is proportional to the area inside the loop and depends on its orientation, not just to the length of wire loop. Sometimes just optimizing wire layout operates miracles. It is one of the few occasions when an audio spectrometer is much more sensitive then ears.

BTW, balanced power transformers can mean two different things - input balanced, always a good thing, but needing 240V in the US , or balanced output 2x60V . Torus power transformers are much more that isolation devices - they have a resonant intrinsic filtration scheme - Narrow Bandwidth Technology (NBT) - that can operate miracles with noisy mains without series filtering components.

 

[LL21]

Residential is really single phase, but it's run in two 120V legs of opposite polarity, in the same way two 60V legs make 120V in balanced power systems... Commercial is three phase where the phases are offset 120 degrees and have different voltages wrt ground/neutral and are typically 208 or 480 volt.

I would not compromise so much on running electric power just to get your tt in a different room. Maybe build a little enclosure/shed for it, but the different room thing is really a problem if it requires so much wire.

We upgraded to 3 Phase here (UK though). Is that different?

 

[Folsom]

Ron, filters are perfectly acceptable on any level of current. The problem is few, so very few, get it right. To date SurgeX is the only one that has got the closest from what I've seen. And that's just a reference to controlling the current capability. Many filters out there remove the noise, but they don't know how to keep the current transient capability. The SurgeX isn't the strongest filter, but the surge suppression it uses never wears out so that's a huge bonus.

Sub panels can connect grounds. What they are not suppose to do is bond ground to common like in the main box. If they could that would reduce ground loops that can form, but wouldn't be safe.

Having a subpanel close to the equipment isn't necessarily for sonic benefits. Convenience of control comes first, but also if you need a lot of power than it does allow you to locate it closer to the equipment with less lines. However for pre-existing homes you're simply replacing the use of legs in the home that mix with other things, so a subpanel makes a lot of sense under those circumstances. Using mild filtration like the SurgeX has actually gives a lot of reason to have a subpanel. When it's closer it's more effective. Otherwise it would be 100% acceptable to just run JPS wire to each socket you're going to use, from the main service. That's a lot of JPS wire... The benefits of the SurgeX can be had in appliance size too, as they're identical to the panel version. Maybe one at the front end, and a panel near the amps?

The panels can have multiple 20a legs. That means you get more benefits of filtration per 20a leg, and separation from noise say from amp to amp that are on their own 20a legs. However you still need service to feed the SurgeX, in that you need a breaker or fuse before the SurgeX, for every 20a leg you're going to run from a SurgeX. In this case I'd use the Klangmodul units because they're got superior low resistance but regular 20a breakers in a regular panel will work (one with copper bus bars like we talked about). The only major downside is that you're not running JPS wire to the subpanel from the main panel because it can't service more than 20a at a time due to the 12ga ground wire.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, filters are perfectly acceptable on any level of current. The problem is few, so very few, get it right. To date SurgeX is the only one that has got the closest from what I've seen. And that's just a reference to controlling the current capability. Many filters out there remove the noise, but they don't know how to keep the current transient capability. The SurgeX isn't the strongest filter, but the surge suppression it uses never wears out so that's a huge bonus.

Sub panels can connect grounds. What they are not suppose to do is bond ground to common like in the main box. If they could that would reduce ground loops that can form, but wouldn't be safe.

Having a subpanel close to the equipment isn't necessarily for sonic benefits. Convenience of control comes first, but also if you need a lot of power than it does allow you to locate it closer to the equipment with less lines. However for pre-existing homes you're simply replacing the use of legs in the home that mix with other things, so a subpanel makes a lot of sense under those circumstances. Using mild filtration like the SurgeX has actually gives a lot of reason to have a subpanel. When it's closer it's more effective. Otherwise it would be 100% acceptable to just run JPS wire to each socket you're going to use, from the main service. That's a lot of JPS wire... The benefits of the SurgeX can be had in appliance size too, as they're identical to the panel version. Maybe one at the front end, and a panel near the amps?

The panels can have multiple 20a legs. That means you get more benefits of filtration per 20a leg, and separation from noise say from amp to amp that are on their own 20a legs. However you still need service to feed the SurgeX, in that you need a breaker or fuse before the SurgeX, for every 20a leg you're going to run from a SurgeX. In this case I'd use the Klangmodul units because they're got superior low resistance but regular 20a breakers in a regular panel will work (one with copper bus bars like we talked about). The only major downside is that you're not running JPS wire to the subpanel from the main panel because it can't service more than 20a at a time due to the 12ga ground wire.

This is what I do. I have three (3) 15' runs of JPS In-Wall AC wire from three separate circuits in my panel. One running to each amp with a Furutech IEC plug directly into the amp, and one to a distribution box for my front end gear at the rack. I bypass all outlets so there are as few connections as possible.

 

[DaveC]

We upgraded to 3 Phase here (UK though). Is that different?

I have no idea, it's likely different from the US version of 3-phase although it's probably similar in concept... Seems like this would be a huge "upgrade" as all service panels and wiring would have to be replaced!

 

[LL21]

I have no idea, it's likely different from the US version of 3-phase although it's probably similar in concept... Seems like this would be a huge "upgrade" as all service panels and wiring would have to be replaced!

It was...basically a massive upgrade in power such that we have more than enough capacity for future power requirements. We basically had everything stripped back to the brick anyway, all new plumbing, wiring, you name it. So it was the right time to do the upgrade...the experts felt it did not make sense to do all new wiring but retain the single phase.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Question for Furutech outlet owners:

Does Furutech have a 30 amp rated outlet? If not, how have you run 30 amp capable circuits to your listening rooms for high-current amps?

Or are Furutech owners running only 20 amp circuits?

 

[Steve williams]

30 amp outlet use 10 AWG wiring. I use a 20 amp AC outlet but wired with 10AWG..

IIRC Marty has a 40 amp outlet for his Spectral amps and uses 8 AWG wire to a 20 amp AC outlet

 

[LL21]

Hey Ron,

I am speaking UK, so may not apply, but the dedicated amp outlet the electricians installed here looks similar to the one Boulder uses it on its big mono reference amps:

 

[DaveC]

Question for Furutech outlet owners:

Does Furutech have a 30 amp rated outlet? If not, how have you run 30 amp capable circuits to your listening rooms for high-current amps?

Or are Furutech owners running only 20 amp circuits?

What amp exactly? There are 30A receptacles but nothing I know of is more than 20A/120V and if it is it's always 240V and not 120V

Furutech receptacles are all 20A/120V, but there is no difference between 15 and 20A receptacles besides the shape of the outlet and almost nothing out there actually uses 20A AC plugs. The only reason for them is if you're putting a single receptacle on a 20A line, then it's required to be 20A by code. But use a duplex and 15A is ok...

30 amp outlet use 10 AWG wiring. I use a 20 amp AC outlet but wired with 10AWG..

IIRC Marty has a 40 amp outlet for his Spectral amps and uses 8 AWG wire to a 20 amp AC outlet

Huh? you mean 40 amp breaker? If so putting a 20A receptacle on a 40A line is against code and dangerous. There are better ways to accomplish this...

Hey Ron,

I am speaking UK, so may not apply, but the dedicated amp outlet the electricians installed here looks similar to the one Boulder uses it on its big mono reference amps:

View attachment 28046

View attachment 28047View attachment 28048

I forget exactly what the ratings for those plugs and receptacles are, but they are pretty awesome... I saw them at Boulder Amplifier a while ago.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Steve and Lloyd.

I do not see 30 amp outlets on the Furutech website.

Let's see if Marty is using the Furutech outlets for those 40 amp circuits.

 

[Steve williams]

Marty uses Furutech Gold as do I (I only use them for my amps otherwise I use Furutech Rhodium for front end gear)

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Huh? you mean 40 amp breaker? If so putting a 20A receptacle on a 40A line is against code and dangerous.
. . .

This is what I thought. So I just want to confirm that Marty and Mike L, etc., have 20 amp circuit breakers on their lines which end in Furutech outlets.

 

[DaveC]

Thank you, Steve and Lloyd.

Let's see if Marty is using the Furutech outlets for those 40 amp circuits.

What device are you talking about that needs more than 20A on a 120V line? I think they don't exist...

IF Marty is using 20A receptacles on a 40A breaker that is against code and if it does cause a fire or an electrocution, YOU are personally responsible for a situation that could cause a death and for what? An improvement in sound (and this is questionable)... just something to keep in mind... If a device can plug into a 20A receptacle it's not going to draw more than 20A, so using a breaker larger than 20A is unnecessary and dangerous.

Not that your electrician is going to agree to go against code and risk his own ass just for the misguided ideas of audiophiles anyways, lol...

 

[Ron Resnick]

I understand that is against code. But I sometimes see references to 30 amp circuits. I am just wondering how they accomplish that -- within the code.

Maybe they are using 30 amp outlets (with the angled prongs)?

 

[Steve williams]

I use a 20 amp outlet but wired with 10AWG

DaveC, correct me if I am wrong but isn't

15 amp circuit wired with 14 AWG
20 amp circuit wired with 12 AWG
30 amp circuit wired with 10 AWG

 

[DaveC]

I understand that is against code. But I sometimes see references to 30 amp circuits. I am just wondering how they accomplish that -- within the code.

Maybe they are using 30 amp outlets (with the angled prongs)?

Correct, the only way to do that is to use 30A/120V receptacles that are never used outside of some industrial applications. I seriously doubt there are any audio devices that require more than 20A/120V that are not 240V amps. Although I have seen some massive HT amps that do require two 20A/120V lines and have two power cables. DataSat I think?

I use a 20 amp outlet but wired with 10AWG

DaveC, correct me if I am wrong but isn't

15 amp circuit wired with 14 AWG
20 amp circuit wired with 12 AWG
30 amp circuit wired with 10 AWG

Yup! No problem using overrated parts EXCEPT for the breaker. The breaker must be equal or lower in value than any of the parts used in the circuit.

 

[Folsom]

Ron,

30A service doesn't mean 30A breaker.

Either they are running a 30A service, 30A breaker, and 30A plug, like Boulder uses, or they are running 30A service, two 15A breakers, and Furutech/regular plugs.

My suggestion to you. Run 40A service, two 20A breakers, and a Furutech for both amplifier sections.

20A, let's do a little math. 20a x 120v = 2400w . Now let's take into account the efficiency of amplifiers.

Class D, it's say 85%, that's .85 x 2400 = 2040w.

Class AB can be anywhere from 30% to 70% efficient depending on the design, so .30 x 2400 = 720w as worst case, .45 x 2400 = 1080w conservative, and .6 x 2400 = 1440w for decent efficiency.

Class A we know it can be super inefficient... so let's say the most abysmal one ever rated at 10% first. .10 x 2400 = 240w , .30 x 2400 = 720w, .40 x 2400 = 960w.

**You're typically only using a handful of watts from amplifiers at a time, 2w is totally normal, the rest is all for dynamic swing, the crest factor.

So you can see how 20A will provide you with an abundance of power! Most of the speakers you're looking at are fairly efficient. We're talking some can be driven to dynamic bliss with 10w. Save the death of your hearing, you've got zero reason for more power at the socket, including a cush amount of overhead. Now obviously Boulder's are unique because they're 1500w class A, so they need an insane amount of power, but you're not going to be buying those are you?

Also JPS wire is only good to 20A. I'd ever consider just running two lines of it to the outlets, no sub panel, and a third to the stereo head on the other wall. You can run a SurgeX box with 3x 20A lines, or off the side of a 60A service with three 20A breakers if you want. I think running from the main service offers superior performance because of the JPS wire rejecting more noise than 60A service wires will. Plus unless you're using Klangmoduls, the extra breakers only add resistance to the circuit.

So to review my suggestions for best performance, and a minor $ saving over Iso's and extra boxes, service, etc.

3x 20a JPS wire lines from main service panel
SurgeX 4x 20a service module
3x 20a Klangmodul units

You could skip the SurgeX, too, and simply mount Klanmodul's in a housing, too. The only thing about Klangmodul's is I'm sure it's better to turn off or unplug any devices before disengaging them, due to the fact that the probably don't disconnect as fast as a breaker when you "flip the switch" however the Gold ones probably fight corrosion that occurs from switching while any form of power is engaged.

 

[DaveC]

Ron,

30A service doesn't mean 30A breaker.

Either they are running a 30A service, 30A breaker, and 30A plug, like Boulder uses, or they are running 30A service, two 15A breakers, and Furutech/regular plugs.

My suggestion to you. Run 40A service, two 20A breakers, and a Furutech for both amplifier sections.

20A, let's do a little math. 20a x 120v = 2400w . Now let's take into account the efficiency of amplifiers.

Class D, it's say 85%, that's .85 x 2400 = 2040w.

Class AB can be anywhere from 30% to 70% efficient depending on the design, so .30 x 2400 = 720w as worst case, .45 x 2400 = 1080w conservative, and .6 x 2400 = 1440w for decent efficiency.

Class A we know it can be super inefficient... so let's say the most abysmal one ever rated at 10% first. .10 x 2400 = 240w , .30 x 2400 = 720w, .40 x 2400 = 960w.

**You're typically only using a handful of watts from amplifiers at a time, 2w is totally normal, the rest is all for dynamic swing, the crest factor.

So you can see how 20A will provide you with an abundance of power! Most of the speakers you're looking at are fairly efficient. We're talking some can be driven to dynamic bliss with 10w. Save the death of your hearing, you've got zero reason for more power at the socket, including a cush amount of overhead. Now obviously Boulder's are unique because they're 1500w class A, so they need an insane amount of power, but you're not going to be buying those are you?

Also JPS wire is only good to 20A. I'd ever consider just running two lines of it to the outlets, no sub panel, and a third to the stereo head on the other wall. You can run a SurgeX box with 3x 20A lines, or off the side of a 60A service with three 20A breakers if you want. I think running from the main service offers superior performance because of the JPS wire rejecting more noise than 60A service wires will. Plus unless you're using Klangmoduls, the extra breakers only add resistance to the circuit.

So to review my suggestions for best performance, and a minor $ saving over Iso's and extra boxes, service, etc.

3x 20a JPS wire lines from main service panel
SurgeX 4x 20a service module
3x 20a Klangmodul units

You could skip the SurgeX, too, and simply mount Klanmodul's in a housing, too. The only thing about Klangmodul's is I'm sure it's better to turn off or unplug any devices before disengaging them, due to the fact that the probably don't disconnect as fast as a breaker when you "flip the switch" however the Gold ones probably fight corrosion that occurs from switching while any form of power is engaged.

I'd agree, but wouldn't skip the SurgeX of course, it's surge elimination is well worth it imo, nevermind the other features...

Also, the Boulder 3050 amp is 240V 30A and is A/B I believe.

If you do multiple circuits from the main panel it would be best to put them all in the same metal box so they are all grounded together.