Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[microstrip]

(...) Big Symphonic works find themselves better reproduced to my ears in digital than in analogue. Having both would allow you to enjoy more music.(...)

In general I agree with most of your feelings, but consider that most of what you say depends on the system and is not an absolute. I particularly think you comment on Big Symphonic deserves some words for discussion, particularly as some people say exactly the opposite.

In general I have found that simple and melodic, particularly when spectacular, big symphonic music sounds great on vinyl. Scheherazade has been pointed several times in this forum and I consider it as an example of such music. However when thinks become much more complex, as Shostakovitch or Mahler, where the melodic lines are much more hidden, and their exposition needs the full help of the full orchestra in depth, we see that digital also has very strong points and can be preferred in some cases.

IMHO in order to sound great digital is much more exigent in terms of system and synergy (sorry Frantz ... . And again sorry to say, but is is my opinion, people who optimize their systems for vinyl playback are not giving a fair chance to digital. But why should they have to do it, if they like what they have?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In general I have found that simple and melodic, particularly when spectacular, big symphonic music sounds great on vinyl. Scheherazade has been pointed several times in this forum and I consider it as an example of such music. However when thinks become much more complex, as Shostakovitch or Mahler, where the melodic lines are much more hidden, and their exposition needs the full help of the full orchestra in depth, we see that digital also has very strong points and can be preferred in some cases.

IMHO in order to sound great digital is much more exigent in terms of system and synergy (sorry Frantz ... . And again sorry to say, but is is my opinion, people who optimize their systems for vinyl playback are not giving a fair chance to digital. But why should they have to do it, if they like what they have?

I have to strongly disagree.

I listen to digital orchestral music 50% or more of the time. love it. and my system is both digital friendly and I have lots of high rez files to choose from. it's mostly not the big romantic stuff, it's the deep dark corners too.

but.....the big rig vinyl takes things to another level.....and the more brooding and deep the music and complex the recording the more vinyl leaves the digital behind. tonal shadings and nuance of staging is much more rendered with the vinyl. delicacy during raging passages is much more musically clear with vinyl. ambience is better with vinyl.

digital can do large orchestral with gusto and grip......but the vinyl is even better.

I think maybe what you are speaking to is what recordings are out there to choose from in classical, more than quality of playback. I totally agree that access to a wide range of classical recordings on digital makes a strong case for doing that.

I don't have as much Mahler vinyl as digital, but what I have is wonderful and satisfying on vinyl.

 

[rockitman]

Orchestral music...the classics were recorded in analog tape...how in the world could the CD's possibly sounds better than the vinyl counterparts ? They don't from my experience !

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

We are decidedly talking about a person who's on a quest for a World Class system. one that will be anchored by one (arguably) of the best speakers around. Room is to be tuned to the hilt, Power etc.. the person has the ears and the drive to get there. So he has shown that he is willing to do what needs to be done. I came to prefer digital because:
1) I was forced to: Original Vinyl Collection irremediably destroyed, got another one recently ... I don't listen to Vinyl that much...
2) Had noticed that was listening to more digital even then
3) Collection most of it was on HDD was saved.

Then listened to only digital and became convinced that it is beyond good enough. No! It is simply good and as good or better than analog. Currently decent to very good Analogue gear not stupid pricey but solid well engineered gears and still believe that Digital has arrived. The thing is if one were to retain the vagaries and the hype of early digital as the only data points, one would be very much mistaken. With the better digital DACs one become quite shocked on how good the early CDs actually were .. it might have a DAC but not an ADC problem. Digital has been very good from the beginning .. Getting it to analog (DAC) was the problem. To me this is no longer the case and might not have been for quite sometime...

Thus I am extending that invitation to Ron, that is not an attempt to convert him.. Well it could be

 

[FrantzM]

I see this is getting into the usual digital vs Analog bloodfest ...

OK No Digital then...

 

[microstrip]

I have to strongly disagree.

I listen to digital orchestral music 50% or more of the time. love it. and my system is both digital friendly and I have lots of high rez files to choose from. it's mostly not the big romantic stuff, it's the deep dark corners too.

but.....the big rig vinyl takes things to another level.....and the more brooding and deep the music and complex the recording the more vinyl leaves the digital behind. tonal shadings and nuance of staging is much more rendered with the vinyl. delicacy during raging passages is much more musically clear with vinyl. ambience is better with vinyl.

digital can do large orchestral with gusto and grip......but the vinyl is even better.

I think maybe what you are speaking to is what recordings are out there to choose from in classical, more than quality of playback. I totally agree that access to a wide range of classical recordings on digital makes a strong case for doing that.

I don't have as much Mahler vinyl as digital, but what I have is wonderful and satisfying on vinyl.

Mike,

I was surely expecting disagreement - after all I said the opinions would be system dependent!

But perhaps you can help me. Please suggest me an available performance of Shostakovitch 5th, 6th and 8th Symphony in vinyl that sounds more real, not more pleasant, than my CDs of Haitink performances on Philips. I have asked several times, no one answered.

 

[microstrip]

Orchestral music...the classics were recorded in analog tape...how in the world could the CD's possibly sounds better than the vinyl counterparts ? They don't from my experience !

As digital is perfecting, we can hope it approaches the tape performance. Anyway music recording did not stop with the end of tape recording!

 

[YashN]

As digital is perfecting, we can hope it approaches the tape performance. Anyway music recording did not stop with the end of tape recording!

We're already there with straight to DSD256 and without any degradation as from the first playback.

 

[microstrip]

I see this is getting into the usual digital vs Analog bloodfest ...

OK No Digital then...

I hope not ... Digital also has some issues that can justify an interesting and motivating discussion as you suggested. Playing with many systems with different equipment around the DCS Vivaldi I could get some fantastic characteristics of digital in each system. But for me the critical point is getting them all in one system - I am still far from this stage!

 

[YashN]

Digital also has some issues

Plenty, especially grounding, power issues from many components especially of the SMPS form, RFI/EMI and inherent noise profiles of digital circuits.

Requires a lot of work to get right (for manufacturers) and set up right (for consumers), but the payback is huge.

No crackling/clicks/pops and degradation like with vinyl, and no degradation/wow/flutter like with tape.

Plus, endless convenience with all your library accessible from the listening position at the touch of a button for playback.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Micro, I have made both statements. I think your Scheherezade statement was specifically referring to my review on the Schopper modded Thorens 124 which blew away the Esoteric K01 where Scheherazade was one of the demo vinyls. Mahler on channel classics DSD digital gives a lot of space and air, so does scheherazade from reference recordings CD. Mahler 2 on vinyl that I have heard is compressed. I haven't heard all Mahler vinyl. Scheherazade Fritz Reiner is a better performance and the new analog productions reissue is very good quality, better than digital. Now, this also changes from analog set up to set up. Some set ups get much more out in analog vs others. That Schopper modded stuff is known to have better resolution than the stock 124, combined with the FR 64 and Zyx Uni II into Shindo, it had much better tone and dynamics and staging as well.

Channel Classics DSDs are very good, and I guess Challenge Classics are as well, haven't heard them, AC recommends them heavily. There are different factors that contribute to realism. Some part tone, some part space, air, soundstage, etc. Your Shostakovich (and I haven’t heard that particular piece, will try) might not have a good quality recording on vinyl. In which case it’s a good excuse to have both vinyl and digital set ups

But generally, if one has good recordings in both, vinyl should win easy on classical. Orchestral symphonies have a lot of tonal requirements, and realistic stage criteria, which are difficult to beat on vinyl. The more complex symphonies might lose a bit due to compression but win on other parts, and might require a more resolving TT set up (e.g. Ortofon, Lyra, VDH), into something like a quality phono like Aesthetic IO sig which in a recent demo gave immense soundstage, tone, air, bass and slam (fyi, not much experience with phonos). I recommended the IO Sig to Audiophile Bill who demoed it and paid the dealer the same night, he liked it that much.

 

[Folsom]

Plenty, especially grounding, power issues from many components especially of the SMPS form, RFI/EMI and inherent noise profiles of digital circuits.

Requires a lot of work to get right (for manufacturers) and set up right (for consumers), but the payback is huge.

No crackling/clicks/pops and degradation like with vinyl, and no degradation/wow/flutter like with tape.

Plus, endless convenience with all your library accessible from the listening position at the touch of a button for playback.

Yes, digital has a way of removing all the fun, making it so darn easy.

 

[PeterA]

Not converting Peter, discussing. That is what I think a forum is for: Exchanging ideas and sometimes exploring. Ron came here exposed his ideas and got answers that allowed him to form a view. I exposed mine.
As an aside you've heard some interesting digital too .. What do you think? Not bad eh? Actually surprisingly good ? eh?
Now just one more OT question: Are the ML panels the most resolving speakers you've heard?

Yes, Frantz, you did expose your ideas, in the form of unsolicited advice. It might be different if Ron had solicited advice about adding a digital front end to his quest for a SOTA system.

As an aside, yes I have heard some interesting digital. What I think about it is stuff for a different thread, not Ron's system quest thread.

Further aside, I've only heard one pair of ML panels and they are not the most resolving speakers I've heard. I have not reached any conclusions about ML panels based on my experience with them. Ron's experience is quite different, I'm sure.

 

[NorthStar]

Ron ? "After a global odyssey of loudspeaker auditions I have ordered Gryphon Audio Pendragons."

Hi Ron,

Yesterday I spent some time (fair amount) searching and reading and looking @ your new speakers. I have read praised reviews, looked @ the specs, materials, composition, drivers, crossovers, design, ... Fantastically awesome...congrats!

P.S. I didn't look @ the price, so I have no idea...it's just not important; what will is how they'll sound/perform in your own room with your own gear and from your own ears.

P.P.S. Regarding your sources; TT and Tape Deck...way to go! :b

P.P.P.S. Is it the same room where you also want to experience movies in elevated style?

 

[FrantzM]

Yes, Frantz, you did expose your ideas, in the form of unsolicited advice. It might be different if Ron had solicited advice about adding a digital front end to his quest for a SOTA system.

As an aside, yes I have heard some interesting digital. What I think about it is stuff for a different thread, not Ron's system quest thread.

Further aside, I've only heard one pair of ML panels and they are not the most resolving speakers I've heard. I have not reached any conclusions about ML panels based on my experience with them. Ron's experience is quite different, I'm sure.

Guilty as charged .. Is it a sin? In an open friendly forum? Where ideas are exchanged in the open and people are free to agree or disagree?

 

[Jazzhead]

After a global odyssey of loudspeaker auditions I have ordered Gryphon Audio Pendragons.

Congrats !! It's a great speaker .

 

[microstrip]

Yes, digital has a way of removing all the fun, making it so darn easy.

Try setting a decently playing NAS music server ...

BTW, for me "decently playing" means that it plays as good as the equivalent CD spinner.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Micro, I have made both statements. I think your Scheherezade statement was specifically referring to my review on the Schopper modded Thorens 124 which blew away the Esoteric K01 where Scheherazade was one of the demo vinyls. Mahler on channel classics DSD digital gives a lot of space and air, so does scheherazade from reference recordings CD. Mahler 2 on vinyl that I have heard is compressed. I haven't heard all Mahler vinyl. Scheherazade Fritz Reiner is a better performance and the new analog productions reissue is very good quality, better than digital. Now, this also changes from analog set up to set up. Some set ups get much more out in analog vs others. That Schopper modded stuff is known to have better resolution than the stock 124, combined with the FR 64 and Zyx Uni II into Shindo, it had much better tone and dynamics and staging as well.

Channel Classics DSDs are very good, and I guess Challenge Classics are as well, haven't heard them, AC recommends them heavily. There are different factors that contribute to realism. Some part tone, some part space, air, soundstage, etc. Your Shostakovich (and I haven’t heard that particular piece, will try) might not have a good quality recording on vinyl. In which case it’s a good excuse to have both vinyl and digital set ups

But generally, if one has good recordings in both, vinyl should win easy on classical. Orchestral symphonies have a lot of tonal requirements, and realistic stage criteria, which are difficult to beat on vinyl. The more complex symphonies might lose a bit due to compression but win on other parts, and might require a more resolving TT set up (e.g. Ortofon, Lyra, VDH), into something like a quality phono like Aesthetic IO sig which in a recent demo gave immense soundstage, tone, air, bass and slam (fyi, not much experience with phonos). I recommended the IO Sig to Audiophile Bill who demoed it and paid the dealer the same night, he liked it that much.

Thanks for your careful and long response. But reading it with care you do not question in any way my argument pro digital in "big" complex orchestral music - the only concrete recording you refer is the famous easily enjoyable Reiner Scheherazade, that BTW plays great in DSD, but that I have not listened in SOTA conditions.

 

[853guy]

But generally, if one has good recordings in both, vinyl should win easy on classical. Orchestral symphonies have a lot of tonal requirements, and realistic stage criteria, which are difficult to beat on vinyl. The more complex symphonies might lose a bit due to compression but win on other parts, and might require a more resolving TT set up (e.g. Ortofon, Lyra, VDH), into something like a quality phono like Aesthetic IO sig which in a recent demo gave immense soundstage, tone, air, bass and slam (fyi, not much experience with phonos). I recommended the IO Sig to Audiophile Bill who demoed it and paid the dealer the same night, he liked it that much.

My own experience has lead me toward a hierarchical approach in buying music, in this order:

1) Availability.

2) Mastering.

3) Format.

As to 1), well, no point trying to get stuff on vinyl if it's never been released, kinda obvious, I guess.

As to 2), there's just some music that does better on digital than vinyl. As I think we all know, mastering vinyl is an art*, and large modulations in frequency and phase (relative to their level in the mix) pose serious challenges to a 33 pressing, less so on 45's , but still, the challenges are present and real. Electronica (of which I have a fairly extensive collection) has often sounded better to me on digital than on vinyl, particularly where there's a lot of low frequency information that's been manipulated in the stereo mix or is severely modulated. This, courtesy of Aphex Twin:



Unless you really have either A) music content in which the frequency and phase relationships are awesome, and B) a mastering engineer cutting the vinyl who is a genius, then often I find digital "wins", which is to simply say what has been often repeated here: Mastering beats format every time. That's not to say the vinyl copy can't have its own character that can be pleasing in-and-of-itself, just that vinyl is no more a silver bullet for a particular genre of music than recording it in DSD vs PCM is. As always, the hands of the artist matter more than the brushes and canvas she uses.

3) I have stuff on CD, vinyl, MP3, FLAC, WAV, AAC, SACD (one or two), DAT and cassette. And why? Because 1) and 2).

Sorry for the brief derail. As you were, gentlemen.

*Which is to say, all mastering is an art.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for your careful and long response. But reading it with care you do not question in any way my argument pro digital in "big" complex orchestral music - the only concrete recording you refer is the famous easily enjoyable Reiner Scheherazade, that BTW plays great in DSD, but that I have not listened in SOTA conditions.

No I do accept that good digital can get a lot of air and space on complex orchestral, and vinyl can get the tone, so when you listen it depends on what catches your attention in that system. I did mention Mahler as more air and space on digital. Also variations in TT set ups are higher, so some TT set ups - the one I heard with Miyajima Madake, for instance - was not suited for orchestral at all, while more resolving carts like Ortofon and Lyra and VDH couple with a good phono will bring a lot of detail and space and air from the groove, which coupled with the tone could make orchestral more enjoyable. I will reply more later, can't chat now