Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Ron Resnick]

Now we are getting somewhere, Mark!


1) What is the most rigid material I could use to fill up the openings and the cavities in the wood frame section underneath (on the inside of) the 3/4" plywood layer? What if I have the contractor fill those openings and cavities with cut pieces of 2"X4"s instead of some type of insulation? Pieces of wood in those cavities should make that wall more rigid than filling the cavities with any type of insulation, I would think?


2) The Quietrock 545 will be screwed and glued to the outside of the 3/4" plywood. Should the aluminum layer in the 545 be closer to the outside or be closer to the plywood layer on the inside?


3) If I understand you correctly, even though the Quietrock 545 will be the surface/exterior layer on the wood frame side, I should use only regular 5/8" common drywall on the cinder block side.

I am not sure about this. For symmetry sake I might be more comfortable having the same Quietrock 545 material on both sides of the walls, unless you think that would be acoustically disadvantageous.


4) The wood frame area in the middle of the left side wall will be partially a hinged door (the door is not hung yet) on the right side and partially filled with an electrical panel on the left side:





It just is not remotely practical, I think, to close that area up with cinder block. However, I can finish the inside of the door with 3/4" plywood and Quietrock 545 so that when the door is closed that wall is pretty much a continuous surface of 3/4" plywood and Quietrock 545.


5) Is absorption the way to make a wall or a soffit disappear (as much as possible) acoustically? Do you agree with making the wood frame wall section at the rear on the right side (opposite the opening to the kitchen at the rear on the left side) as absorbent as possible (to try to "match" the open space to the kitchen on the left side)?

 

[Mark Seaton]

Now we are getting somewhere, Mark!


1) What is the most rigid material I could use to fill up the openings and the cavities in the wood frame section underneath (on the inside of) the 3/4" plywood layer? What if I have the contractor fill those openings and cavities with cut pieces of 2"X4"s instead of some type of insulation? Pieces of wood in those cavities should make that wall more rigid than filling the cavities with any type of insulation, I would think?


2) The Quietrock 545 will be screwed and glued to the outside of the 3/4" plywood. Should the aluminum layer in the 545 be closer to the outside or be closer to the plywood layer on the inside?


3) If I understand you correctly, even though the Quietrock 545 will be the surface/exterior layer on the wood frame side, I should use only regular 5/8" common drywall on the cinder block side.


4) The wood frame area in the middle of the left side wall will be partially a hinged door (the door is not hung yet) on the right side and partially filled with an electrical panel on the left side:


It just is not remotely practical, I think, to close that area up with cinder block. However, I can finish the inside of the door with 3/4" plywood and Quietrock 545 so that when the door is closed that wall is pretty much a continuous surface of 3/4" plywood and Quietrock 545.

Hi Ron,

Further thought circled back to looking into a couple layers of DUROCK cement board used behind tile in bathrooms. I believe it can be had up to 0.25, 0.50, and 0.625 inch thickness, but some quick calculations as a reality check confirmed the Quietrock 545 is still more dense per area & thickness. The Quietrock 545 appears to be the most efficient way to achieve the density you are after. High grade plywood such as Baltic Birch Plywood will give the rigidity more like the cinder block walls. I would not waste effort on the fill of the cavity. You will have gaps next to the studs and still have to allow power wiring and the like to get through. I would just stuff the cavity full with rockwool or denim insulation.

What is the current construction of the left/right interior walls in front of the cinder block? Again, the trick is symmetry vs the depth of the materials. Given what you are investing in the speakers and electronics, I wouldn't get too stuck on giving up 1-2" of thickness.

5) Is absorption the way to make a wall or a soffit disappear (as much as possible) acoustically? Do you agree with making the wood frame wall section at the rear on the right side (opposite the opening to the kitchen at the rear on the left side) as absorbent as possible (to try to "match" the open space to the kitchen on the left side)?

Absorption is very helpful, but it always has a lower bandwidth limit to it's effect, and that again is related to thickness. It's a guess without a picture and dimensions of the differences at the rear of the room.

Good to hear you connected with Nyal. I'll be interested to see what he recommends.

 

[pjwd]

Thank you, Phil!

But with my ceiling height of 14.5' why would I want to lower the acoustic height of the ceiling to match the 9' asymmetrical soffit? Wouldn't it just be better to deal with the soffit if I have to by putting some absorbent material on the face of it or the underside of it?

Ron - now that I see the photo I agree it is not usefull to go right across the room - just to clarify the intent of the baffles - they dont reduce the acoustic height of the space , they remove early ceiling reflections so the low "acoustic height" is not as defined and of course volume is unchanged
if you apply absorption the the ceiling and the high level wall you will not have symmetry as the other surfaces opposite are reflective and if you make it broadband you will need considerable depth and dampen the room further - there is always going to be a trade off in trying to make the room behave symmetrically and baffles under all the low ceiling would be one option

In any case you should have refined your brief to your acoustic consultants by now

cheers

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

. . . The Quietrock 545 appears to be the most efficient way to achieve the density you are after. High grade plywood such as Baltic Birch Plywood will give the rigidity more like the cinder block walls. I would not waste effort on the fill of the cavity. You will have gaps next to the studs and still have to allow power wiring and the like to get through. I would just stuff the cavity full with rockwool or denim insulation.

What is the current construction of the left/right interior walls in front of the cinder block? Again, the trick is symmetry vs the depth of the materials. Given what you are investing in the speakers and electronics, I wouldn't get too stuck on giving up 1-2" of thickness.


Absorption is very helpful, but it always has a lower bandwidth limit to it's effect, and that again is related to thickness. It's a guess without a picture and dimensions of the differences at the rear of the room.
. . .

Dear Mark,

Thank you for looking into other materials and densities, and for confirming that Quietrock 545 is the way to go for me.

Starting at the front wall the left side wall is about 3/12 cinder block then 4/12 door way + wood framing and then 5/12 open to the kitchen. The wood frame area in the middle of the left side wall will be partially a hinged door (the door is not hung yet) on the right side (of this middle section) and partially filled with an electrical panel on the left side (of this middle section).

Starting at the front wall the right side wall is about 6/12 cinder block and then 3/12 wood framing and then 3/12 open to the equipment room.

The drywall currently in the room is going to be completely removed from the poured concrete front wall and from the side walls and from the ceiling. So I have a chance to start over with any exterior surface you recommend.

Right now I understand you to be recommending 1/2" or 3/4" Baltic birch plywood to be screwed (and glued?) to the existing studs of the wood frame sections opposite cinder block sections, with blue jeans insulation in all wood frame openings and cavities. Then Quietrock 545 would be screwed (and glued?) to the outside of the plywood. Should the 1/16" inch steel layer in the 545 be closer to the outside or be closer to the plywood layer on the inside?

Are you suggesting that the cinder block walls opposite the wood framed walls should have only regular 5/8" common drywall glued to them? For symmetry sake shouldn't the Quietrock 545 material be affixed to both sides of the walls? Or do you think that the combination of common 5/8" drywall Green Glued to cinder block is a closer acoustic match to the combination of wood framing and plywood and Quietrock 545 than would be Quietrock 545 Green Glued to the cinder block?

 

[Ron Resnick]

In other news . . .

I am now researching (just for fun) four possible alternatives to my VTL MB-750s (Class AB, push-pull, 350 watts in triode mode) for the Pendragon ribbon panels:

1) NAT Audio Magma New SE (Class A, SET, 170 watts)

2) Joule Electra VZN-220 Rites of Passage (Class A, OTL, 200 watts)

3) Jadis JA-200 Mk. II (Class A, push-pull, 200 watts with KT-150s)

4) Ayon Orthos XS Mk. III (Class A, push-pull, 300 watts with KT-150s)​

 

[jeff1225]

You need to let me bring my LAMM hybrids up to the house once its ready.

 

[Ron Resnick]

For sure!

(But, if anything, I want to go more tube, not less tube.)

 

[SCAudiophile]

In other news . . .

I am now researching (just for fun) three possible alternatives to my VTL MB-750s (Class AB, push-pull, 350 watts in triode mode) for the Pendragon ribbon panels:

1) NAT Audio Magma New SE (Class A, SET, 170 watts)

2) Joule Electra VZN-220 Rites of Passage (Class A, OTL, 200 watts)

3) Jadis JA-200 Mk. II (Class A, push-pull, 200 watts with KT-150s)​

Best of luck with all of this and hoping that your timeline is getting shorter! Frankly you are much more patient than I ever could be to get a system back up and running!

The NATs are great amps,....they have power to spare even with the uber-speakers you are looking to bring in (still the Pendragons correct, or will it be the Kodos???)

You may wish to check out the following;

Raven Audio SHAMAN Mk2*

Ayon Titan EVO Monos
Ayon Ortho XS Monos

Someone mentioned the big LAMMS,...another great choice.

What is your current shopping list for your system? This has been an amazing, long and very educational thread; it would help many of us to learn from your adventures, if there was a "status as of today..." list of speakers, components, cables, etc....to read.

Have a great weekend!

Mark

 

[Ron Resnick]

Best of luck with all of this and hoping that your timeline is getting shorter! Frankly you are much more patient than I ever could be to get a system back up and running!

The NATs are great amps,....they have power to spare even with the uber-speakers you are looking to bring in (still the Pendragons correct, or will it be the Kodos???)

You may wish to check out the following;

Raven Audio SHAMAN Mk2*

Ayon Titan EVO Monos
Ayon Ortho XS Monos

Someone mentioned the big LAMMS,...another great choice.

What is your current shopping list for your system? This has been an amazing, long and very educational thread; it would help many of us to learn from your adventures, if there was a "status as of today..." list of speakers, components, cables, etc....to read.

Have a great weekend!

Mark

Thank you, Mark.

The Magma beats the Titan in output. The Ortho looks interesting. It looks like the same topology as the JA-200: Class A, push-pull.

I ordered Pendragons, not Kodos.

The "shopping list" is reflected in my equipment list in the signature block, which I update as decisions warrant.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Thank you, Mark.

The Magma beats the Titan in output. The Ortho looks interesting. It looks like the same topology as the JA-200: Class A, push-pull.

I ordered Pendragons, not Kodos.

The "shopping list" is reflected in my equipment list in the signature block, which I update as decisions warrant.

Thank you,...sorry I missed the signature block manifest .

The Orthos XS monos and the RA Shamans have (I think) alot of what you may be looking for; both very interesting to say the least.

Not surprised you are sticking with the Pendragons,....AMT Tweeters and overall, a great speaker and looks like the one to choose!

All the best!

 

[microstrip]

You need to let me bring my LAMM hybrids up to the house once its ready.

What brand of tube are you using in the ML2.2?

 

[microstrip]

Thank you, Mark.

The Magma beats the Titan in output. The Ortho looks interesting. It looks like the same topology as the JA-200: Class A, push-pull.

I ordered Pendragons, not Kodos.

The "shopping list" is reflected in my equipment list in the signature block, which I update as decisions warrant.

Ron,

Do you have any kind of technical preference for SE or balanced input?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Philosophically I prefer single-ended connections. Despite cogent arguments to the contrary I remain concerned that balanced input and output connections eliminate even order harmonic distortion, leaving odd order harmonic distortion more audible. I think balanced connections may be quieter, and have a lower noise floor ("blacker" backgrounds) but might give up a bit of naturalness.

However, in my particular situation, Jim White prefers a balanced signal into the Io. The Io outputs a true balanced signal and Gryphon is all about balanced inputs and outputs. Plus, no matter what I think, even I agree that a 40 foot or 50 foot length of interconnect demands a balanced cable.

However, the XLR input on the MB-750 is not a true balanced input, so I would use the single-ended output from the Gryphon bass tower to loop the signal into the VTLs.

So, in summary, I prefer single-ended connections, but my future system is more set up for balanced connections.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Attached are photos of the four walls and the ceiling of the listening room.


FRONT WALL




REAR WALL




LEFT SIDE WALL




RIGHT SIDE WALL




CEILING




It turns out that the asymmetry between the cinder block section on the right side wall and the wood frame section (opposite the cinder block) on the left side wall is fairly small – – only about 4 feet wide.

To make the wood framed wall more acoustically similar to the concrete block wall I researched cement-based Hardieboard.

https://www.jameshardie.com/products/hardiebacker-cement-board

I am thinking about screwing a layer of Hardieboard onto the studs and then screwing and gluing one layer of common drywall over that.

So in this scenario the cinder block wall would have two layers of common drywall, and the wood framed side would have one layer of cement board screwed to the studs for a rigid inner wall layer plus one layer of common drywall covering it on the outside.

 

[Ron Resnick]

But then I thought "We are trying to replicate on the wood framed left side wall the concrete block of the right side wall. So what about some kind of actual concrete block veneer that is half an inch thick or an inch thick or a couple of inches thick?"

So I found:





So maybe concrete block veneer should be attached to the wood studs, so both side walls have have actual concrete materials, and then I would glue common drywall to the cinder block surfaces on both side walls.


What do you think?

 

[Ron Resnick]

The next problem . . .





The left side of the front wall (about 42" wide) sticks out from the rest of the front wall by about 4". Please see FRONT LEFT CORNER photo.



FRONT LEFT CORNER




FRONT RIGHT CORNER





I do not absorb the back wave of dipole speakers. (I do not wish to debate that point here.) I am concerned about the back wave of the left speaker getting adulterated by the different depths of the front wall right behind it. My rough ruler measurements show that the back of the ribbon driver will pretty much be aiming right at that 4" corner sticking out.

Do you think it is worth "firring out" the rest of the front wall so that the entire front wall is one uniformly flat surface? Or is it not worth losing 4" of floor space in front of the majority of that front wall?

 

[Ron Resnick]

In the FRONT LEFT CORNER photo you can see the big ceiling soffit which is parallel to the right side wall and which drops the ceiling height at the front of the left side wall to 9.5 feet.

Should I treat the vertical side surface area (which is opposite cinder block on the right side wall) as a regular side wall (in which case I would seek to make the soffit wall more rigid to match the cinder block on the right side wall -- like l am doing with the rest of the wood framing on the left side wall which is opposite cinder block on the right side wall) or should I try to make it acoustically ignored (in which case I would apply sound absorbing material to that soffit wall)?

 

[pjwd]

The next problem . . .


View attachment 37088


The left side of the front wall (about 42" wide) sticks out from the rest of the front wall by about 4". Please see FRONT LEFT CORNER photo.



FRONT LEFT CORNER
View attachment 37084



FRONT RIGHT CORNER
View attachment 37085
.

Do you think it is worth "firring out" the rest of the front wall so that the entire front wall is one uniformly flat surface? Or is it not worth losing 4" of floor space in front of the majority of that front wall?

Although an advocate of symmetry, I would only worry about the aesthetics with that small dimension - having said that you do tend to hear what you see so stepping both sides might be a solution depending on your decor

cheers,

Phil

 

[pjwd]

In the FRONT LEFT CORNER photo you can see the big ceiling soffit which is parallel to the right side wall and which drops the ceiling height at the front of the left side wall to 9.5 feet.

Should I treat the vertical side surface area (which is opposite cinder block on the right side wall) as a regular side wall (in which case I would seek to make the soffit wall more rigid to match the cinder block on the right side wall -- like l am doing with the rest of the wood framing on the left side wall which is opposite cinder block on the right side wall) or should I try to make it acoustically ignored (in which case I would apply sound absorbing material to that soffit wall)?

Ron - I would suggest the vertical surfaces be all similar as a base structure and then any treatment be applied and symmetrical - you are not going to hear any first reflections from these surfaces ( and you are not going to stick your head up there ) so it is only the reverberant field that will concern you - as I have banged on about previously I believe it is the ceiling that will cause the problems

cheers,

Phil

 

[Rodney Gold]

What sort of levels do you listen at ?
I listen at lifelike or beyond levels and thus any resonace problem is majorly magnified.
Screw everything down with double or triple fasteners if you listen loud otherwise you will spend a lot of time tracking down and fixing various rattles and buzzes.
In my old room , the soffits (dropped ceiling bulkheads ) were a major source of issues ..