Don't forget to insulate your HVAC ducting while everything is still opened up Ron. Lots of potential for rattling there too.
Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Hi Ron
Given your dipole speakers and that you are willing to sacrifice those 4 Inch anyways, I would make the whole front wall one big fractal Schroeder diffusor like Henk in the Netherlands has it.
I know his room before and after the full front wall diffusor and I found his Grands much better sounding with the diffusor wall behind the Grands.
Two birds with one Stone: visually and sonically an even front wall
Given your dipole speakers and that you are willing to sacrifice those 4 Inch anyways, I would make the whole front wall one big fractal Schroeder diffusor like Henk in the Netherlands has it.
I know his room before and after the full front wall diffusor and I found his Grands much better sounding with the diffusor wall behind the Grands.
Two birds with one Stone: visually and sonically an even front wall
Ron, looking at the one photo of the rear wall, would it not be possible to bring out the shallow wall at the opening to the kitchen on the right about 3-4 feet to match the depth of the wall to your equipment/theater room on the left? Could you not also drop the header height to the kitchen opening on the right to match the height of the opening on the left? Why not try to make these two openings closer in size, and location either by enlarging the one on the left of the photo or making smaller the one to the kitchen on the left?
Personally, I would prefer making the openings smaller, perhaps even enclosing them with beautiful, large, wooden doors. The doors could even have thick laminated glass panes to reduce reflections/resonance. If I were sitting in that general area and trying to listen to music, from what will surely be an outrageously good set up, all of that open space would distract me a bit and may play havoc with acoustics and symmetry. Have you considered heavy, solid pocket doors in those openings so that you have the option of sealing off your room? You could hide one in the wall enclosure by bringing the wall out from the rear glass wall. Or are you planning to have those curtains/drapes wrap around the entire back of the room including those openings? I think doors would be a cleaner, more elegant, look. All of those angles and hard surfaces, straight edges and glass rear wall seem to be a different aesthetic from soft, thick curtains and rods.
I just thought I'd add a few suggestions to make your head spin even more.
Personally, I would prefer making the openings smaller, perhaps even enclosing them with beautiful, large, wooden doors. The doors could even have thick laminated glass panes to reduce reflections/resonance. If I were sitting in that general area and trying to listen to music, from what will surely be an outrageously good set up, all of that open space would distract me a bit and may play havoc with acoustics and symmetry. Have you considered heavy, solid pocket doors in those openings so that you have the option of sealing off your room? You could hide one in the wall enclosure by bringing the wall out from the rear glass wall. Or are you planning to have those curtains/drapes wrap around the entire back of the room including those openings? I think doors would be a cleaner, more elegant, look. All of those angles and hard surfaces, straight edges and glass rear wall seem to be a different aesthetic from soft, thick curtains and rods.
I just thought I'd add a few suggestions to make your head spin even more.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
+1
Thank you Jack, David and Steve!
This has been something of a "peeling back the onion" project and once I realised I wanted to remove the drywall from the ceiling I told the contractor it is a great opportunity to examine and quiet the ducting and evaluate softer airflow, and to noise insulate the closet next to the listening room with the HVAC unit, and see how else we can make the air conditioning quieter.
I also want to see if there is some vibration absorbing surround that can be put around the LED light cut-outs in the ceiling.
What are your thoughts on the questions about:
1) concrete block veneer on the wood frame side?
2) "firring out" the front wall (and losing the 4" of floor space)?
3) using absorption on the vertical face of the front left corner ceiling soffit (parallel to he concrete block on the right side wall) or finishing that soffit vertical side wall the exact same way I finish the other section of the wood framing area on the lower left side wall (opposite the cinder block wall on the right side)?
I'd consider putting absorption on the bottom (horizontal) face of that soffit to lesson reflection and doing something with that upper corner where the JPS in wall AC cables are showing. That may be a nasty corner and certainly not symmetrical to anything else in the room. I may depend in part where the speakers are finally located, but if the left speaker is partially or fully under that soffit, it will be even more of an issue, I would think. It is at least worth discussing with a professional.
Those floors look slick. Is that some kind of rolled on moisture barrier over the concrete? If it is, and it is rubberized (just a guess) it should help lesson transmission of some ground borne vibrations up into the speakers and amps. I think you plan to also have a section of hardwood flooring in the front of the room, correct? That may cause reflection up on the left side of the room to the underside of that soffit which will be a different condition than on the right. Another thing to discuss as it may cause problems with acoustic symmetry.
All opinions from an armchair acoustic amateur.
Thank you very much, pjwd.
I plan to put a tower of ASC tube traps in the front corners of the room.
But your suggestion to not fir out the area in red would create a second corner on the right side of the front wall right behind the ribbon driver of the right speaker.
Having that step corner behind each speaker would preserve symmetry, but then I am concerned about those step-out corner adulterating the back wave of each speaker.
Thank you, Peter. Indeed that left front corner under the soffit (whether the red JPS wires are) is getting a floor to ceiling (floor to soffit) 16" round ASC tube trap tower.
I definitely agree with affixing sound absorbing material to the horizontal face (ceiling face) of the soffit.
I am concerned about proper water drainage under the concrete slab of the house. I wanted a commercial-grade solution to never worrying about moisture seeping up through the concrete to damage the new (future) walnut wood floor.
So I hunted down a commercial grade (I think, anyway) application/sealer called Koster Vap (from some German company). The concrete slab is first grinded down a bit all over to insure the Koster Vap infuses into the concrete. The Koster Vap is then applied to the slab and leaves a pretty moisture-impervious barrier on the concrete slab. The Koster Vap company (of course) requires a company-certified applier to do the work, so that meant another sub-contractor (of course).
Now that the floor floor of the listening space is clean, I measured the length at 25' 2" and the width at 19' 10". The soffit ceiling height is 9.5" and the high ceiling height is 15'. Drywall materials of course will shorten these dimensions.
Ron and Peter - this is what I mean by using baffles to stop reflections and attempt to mirror the other side - absorption of any bandwidth will lower the ceiling and still be limited - if decor is an issue they could be glass or clear acrylic
Bass - it will be interesting to see how the bass behaves in this room - the openings at rear and rear glass wall all will absorb bass - the upper level space has non parallel walls in one direction whihc should smooth out the modes a bit and the rear glass wall will be transparent below 250 hz or so - against that the shortest dimension up there is quite short and could build up some reverberant energy - I expect you will not have a big problem
Wall behind speakers - I would favour some diffusion in the middle section to improve your stereo image and use the recess to accomplish that end
cheers,
Phil
Bass - it will be interesting to see how the bass behaves in this room - the openings at rear and rear glass wall all will absorb bass - the upper level space has non parallel walls in one direction whihc should smooth out the modes a bit and the rear glass wall will be transparent below 250 hz or so - against that the shortest dimension up there is quite short and could build up some reverberant energy - I expect you will not have a big problem
Wall behind speakers - I would favour some diffusion in the middle section to improve your stereo image and use the recess to accomplish that end
cheers,
Phil
This is to follow up on Mark Seaton's idea, above. To achieve the objective of making the left side and the right side walls of the same material as much as possible, so that when sound hits the left wall and the right wall at mirror image points the sound waves hit the same outside material as well as interior wall structure, I found that cinder blocks are made in a depth of 3 5/8" or 4" for interior partition walls.
It has nothing to do with aesthetics or sound proofing -- the only purpose is to make the left side wall and the right side wall acoustically similar at mirror image points.
For the portion of the left side wall which corresponds to cinder block on the right side wall, does it make any sense to use these 4" cinder blocks to build a cinder block wall on the left side? (This would mean, effectively, replacing the wood framed wall between the door way and the kitchen opening (or, perhaps, just the wood framing to the right of the electrical sub-panel on that wall -- depending on where the cinder block wall ends on the right side wall) with a thin cinder block wall?
It has nothing to do with aesthetics or sound proofing -- the only purpose is to make the left side wall and the right side wall acoustically similar at mirror image points.
For the portion of the left side wall which corresponds to cinder block on the right side wall, does it make any sense to use these 4" cinder blocks to build a cinder block wall on the left side? (This would mean, effectively, replacing the wood framed wall between the door way and the kitchen opening (or, perhaps, just the wood framing to the right of the electrical sub-panel on that wall -- depending on where the cinder block wall ends on the right side wall) with a thin cinder block wall?
Wow, that is very cool, Phil! Thank you!
Why do you disagree with Peter and me with putting absorption on the horizontal underside of the soffit (where you have the orange rectangles)?
I do not want any glass surface area visible. Over the glass at the rear wall will be an acoustic curtain, and if more absorption is needed (or if diffusion is needed instead of absorption, I can just put it over the glass wall).
On the front wall my starting point is to have a reflective front wall to encourage a clean back wave from the dipole speakers. I do not want to build in there any diffusion or any absorption to start with.
Ron - I would think that a stiff wall of high density like the systems you have proposed previously would be adequate - even a 4" block wall is going to resonate at low frequency - this is all omnidirectional low frequency and you just dont want to create too many areas that completely suck up this energy in a random way - have you discussed this with your consultants
Phil
Phil
No, I am awaiting the consultants' recommendations . . . before I ask them to evaluate whatever I come up with independently.
Wow, that is very cool, Phil! Thank you!
Why do you disagree with Peter and me with putting absorption on the horizontal underside of the soffit (where you have the orange rectangles)?
well you only need it at the point where it is going to reflect off the ceiling , onto the wall and into your ears so it is a relatively small area - probably 3 of 4 feet - just imagine all your surfaces are mirrors and sit in the chair and look at your speakers reflections - thats the spot - you probably want it to act from 250hz up to as high as you can hear
I do not want any glass surface area visible. Over the glass at the rear wall will be an acoustic curtain, and if more absorption is needed (or if diffusion is needed instead of absorption, I can just put it over the glass wall).
On the front wall my starting point is to have a reflective front wall to encourage a clean back wave from the dipole speakers. I do not want to build in there any diffusion or any absorption to start with.
I agree you do not want a QRD or similar diffuser that messes up phase but reducing the direct reflection will clean up your image - it is just a shame to give up this 4" now - you can fill it on with a flat panel later if you choose
The recycled blue jean insulation has the best coefficients for absorbing of almost any material. You can buy a palette for like $550 from home depot. (something like that)
The soffit isn't as much of a problem as you might think, because you have line sources so there isn't as much projection outwards towards it, compared to what is going forward. I would keep the option open to put a wood panel over opened soffit framing that is stuffed with absorbing material. You may not prefer the absorbing material. Basically, wait till you have a working stereo before you finalize that. All you need is a piece of plywood and some insulation to test back and forth. When you decide it can be dressed up with a nice hardwood or made into an absorption device.
The soffit isn't as much of a problem as you might think, because you have line sources so there isn't as much projection outwards towards it, compared to what is going forward. I would keep the option open to put a wood panel over opened soffit framing that is stuffed with absorbing material. You may not prefer the absorbing material. Basically, wait till you have a working stereo before you finalize that. All you need is a piece of plywood and some insulation to test back and forth. When you decide it can be dressed up with a nice hardwood or made into an absorption device.
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