The digging of the 200' long and 3' deep trench (at the base of the retaining wall holding up my little pool and deck) to contain chemical-encased ground rods to achieve a resistance to ground of less than 10 ohms has begun.
I do not remember the argument anymore, but I remember reading in a past thread about grounds in WBF that an audio system should use one single ground rod.
I don't think single grounds are actually to code in most areas of Calif. I just went through an installation of a new 200 amp panel and while I was at it, I replaced all of the cable from the street/transformer to the panel. This involved a great deal of infrastructure work, which I was stuck paying for (ouch)... The local electrical co. don't want to pay for anything that they consider an unnecessary 'upgrade'..! Anyhow, my electrician told me that a dual ground is required under code and that the ground cable cannot connect between grounds. ( therefore a separate cable for each rod). I also installed 10/2 gauge cable directly from the 20 amp breaker and used an isolated receptacle in my room. Hopefully, my system will benefit from all of this power work. Should be interesting as my ss amp is back at Jeff Rowland's factory. Jeff is applying his skills and hopefully will be modifying this amp as much as he knows how to. If ( he is taking his time, LOL) I get the amp back before the end of the year, I will be curious if I hear a big difference..Jeff assures me that the choke power supply that the amp (model8) utilizes is pretty immune to power supply issues from the wall. We shall see.
Davey, Replacing the wire from the street transformer to your panel sounds complicated but it sounds like a good idea. I hope the revised Rowland amp is everything you are hoping for!
The listening room is a dedicated space, but not a dedicated room. Yes, about half of the left side of the room is open to the kitchen.
I do not remember the argument anymore, but I remember reading in a past thread about grounds in WBF that an audio system should use one single ground rod.
microstrip, That is not my understanding. Multiple ground rods combine to allow a lower resistance to ground. Southern California is naturally pretty much a desert near the ocean and the soil is dry and not conductive.
Hi Ron,
Lyncole definitely looks like a great professional company and I'm sure that they'll get ground resistance to where they say but that doesn't guarantee the sonic quality you expect and need for our purposes. I did a lot of experimenting with different grounding strategies over the last 3 years and even installed a similar system to Lyncole's earlier this year, only longer and buried deeper. I got the very low resistance as promised but the sonic quality was poor. I think the number of connections used in this type of ground system has a negative impact on the sound. I realized the best sound from a single rod solution as suggested by Bruce.
Just my 2 cents...
microstrip, That is not my understanding. Multiple ground rods combine to allow a lower resistance to ground. Southern California is naturally pretty much a desert near the ocean and the soil is dry and not conductive.
David, I appreciate hearing about your experience!
Unless multiple ground rods were picking up RFI I do not see why they would have a deleterious effect on sound quality. What is your theory as to why multiple ground rods had a negative sonic effect?
David, I appreciate hearing about your experience!
Unless multiple ground rods were picking up RFI I do not see why they would have a deleterious effect on sound quality. What is your theory as to why multiple ground rods had a negative sonic effect?
Davey, Replacing the wire from the street transformer to your panel sounds complicated but it sounds like a good idea. I hope the revised Rowland amp is everything you are hoping for!
The listening room is a dedicated space, but not a dedicated room. Yes, about half of the left side of the room is open to the kitchen.
Ron, the cable replacement involved digging a trench down to five (5') feet and about ninety five (95') feet in length. We then 'pulled' all of the old cable..which was 'spec'ed' to a max of 125 amps and replaced that with new 400 amp cable in a 3" conduit into the new trench. I unfortunately had to dig up my driveway and about forty five feet of street (what we do for this hobby!!). This was unfortunate and VERY costly! However, the old cable was not only under spec, it was also as it turns out, not even in conduit! Plus, the new cable connections that I had the electrical company replace at the transformer are far more 'beefy' and will not corrode like the older versions. I am certain that if nothing else, replacing that older main cable and the corroded connection at the transformer will be very beneficial. Now, IF I could just get the power company to get me a new transformer, LOL.
David, did you have any junction boxes in the connection between your breaker and the room. If so, that would explain a lot. A lot of electricians think it is ok to run the in-wall cable from the breaker to a junction box and then continue to the wall receptacle. ( Yes, even in a dedicated line!).
This is obviously a no/no and will be detrimental. Shouldn't be a factor with two ground rods, so long as they are not connected with the same cable to the main panel. ( and of course, no junction boxes either).
David, did you have any junction boxes in the connection between your breaker and the room. If so, that would explain a lot. A lot of electricians think it is ok to run the in-wall cable from the breaker to a junction box and then continue to the wall receptacle. ( Yes, even in a dedicated line!).
This is obviously a no/no and will be detrimental. Shouldn't be a factor with two ground rods, so long as they are not connected with the same cable to the main panel. ( and of course, no junction boxes either).
No, I have a direct connection from the ground systems to the audio panel and a straight run of wire from each breaker in the panel to a receptacle. The connections and contacts I mentioned were in regard to the actual ground conductor, there would be a number of connections in a 200' run.
david
Interesting, David. And to make sure I understand you, does your observation apply where the individual ground rods are connected together outside at a single point, and the only ground wire coming into the house connects to that single point outside?
Interesting, David. And to make sure I understand you, does your observation apply where the individual ground rods are connected together outside at a single point, and the only ground wire coming into the house connects to that single point outside?
I'm talking about the actual copper rods, pipes, wires, whatever conductor you use that gets buried underground. You'll have multiple connection points for your 200' run that need to get weld together and I think that has a bearing on the sound. I also think that the 200' horizontal layout has too much contact surface also affecting the sound, but this is only a theory, I can't prove it one way or another. What I know for sure is that the simple 8' copper rod sounds far better than my 240' horizontal ground system which is very similar to what you're doing. We dug a trench that went all around the property...
I'm talking about the actual copper rods, pipes, wires, whatever conductor you use that gets buried underground. You'll have multiple connection points for your 200' run that need to get weld together and I think that has a bearing on the sound. I also think that the 200' horizontal layout has too much contact surface also affecting the sound, but this is only a theory, I can't prove it one way or another. What I know for sure is that the simple 8' copper rod sounds far better than my 240' horizontal ground system which is very similar to what you're doing. We dug a trench that went all around the property...
It's not because of the connections, it's because along the line of a 200 ft ground rod there will be potential differences causing current to flow, and it's attached directly to your system's ground, polluting it. It may also be acting as a giant antennae, further polluting your ground plane.
Ron, your attempt to get a low resistance to ground has no bearing on audio quality and is probably going to be detrimental.
Dear Dave and Davey, thank you very much for your input. I will revisit the whole horizontal ground rod project.
I do know that one 8 foot ground rod into the dry, non-conductive Los Angeles dirt will not create an electrically effective ground, so I'm not sure what to do.
Dear Dave and Davey, thank you very much for your input. I will revisit the whole horizontal ground rod project.
I do know that one 8 foot ground rod into the dry, non-conductive Los Angeles dirt will not create an electrically effective ground, so I'm not sure what to do.
. The local electrical co. don't want to pay for anything that they consider an unnecessary 'upgrade'..! Anyhow, my electrician told me that a dual ground is required under code and that the ground cable cannot connect between grounds. ( therefore a separate cable for each rod). I also installed 10/2 gauge cable directly from the 20 amp breaker and used an isolated receptacle in my room. Hopefully, my system will benefit from all of this power work. Should be interesting as my ss amp is back at Jeff Rowland's factory. Jeff is applying his skills and hopefully will be modifying this amp as much as he knows how to. If ( he is taking his time, LOL) I get the amp back before the end of the year, I will be curious if I hear a big difference..Jeff assures me that the choke power supply that the amp (model8) utilizes is pretty immune to power supply issues from the wall. We shall see.
