Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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Yes; I am looking forward to set-up help from several dozen WBF members.

Everyone is welcome to focus on the component of greatest interest to him.

Alcoholic rewards will be inversely proportional to difficulty of assignment. People merely pushing speakers around will receive beer. Marty, who will be comparing the sounds of different metallurgy AC outlet covers, will receive the very best wine.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Folsom, why do you think this custom Funk/JC1/Watch Controller plan makes more sense than just buying a pair of JL Audio Gotham V.2s?
 

Folsom

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Folsom, why do you think this custom Funk/JC1/Watch Controller plan makes more sense than just buying a pair of JL Audio Gotham V.2s?

Firstly I have no opposition to classD electronics found in Funk, but you do. They're also found in JL, but the JL doesn't have near the adjustability. There's no Q setting on the JL's, for example. JL's also sound sluggish compared to subwoofers that are not even as good as the Funks. It's not hard to imagine since they're very SPL focused, which doesn't make them decay well so modes can be really bad.
 

LL21

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Yes; I am looking forward to set-up help from several dozen WBF members.

Everyone is welcome to focus on the component of greatest interest to him.

Alcoholic rewards will be inversely proportional to difficulty of assignment. People merely pushing speakers around will receive beer. Marty, who will be comparing the sounds of different metallurgy AC outlet covers, will receive the very best wine.
Given the size of your speakers...and the fact that you are now contemplating big subs (and who knows by the time you are ready - Chronomaster Subs?)...the guys who are moving them might deserve the very best wine and cognac!
 

LL21

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Firstly I have no opposition to classD electronics found in Funk, but you do. They're also found in JL, but the JL doesn't have near the adjustability. There's no Q setting on the JL's, for example. JL's also sound sluggish compared to subwoofers that are not even as good as the Funks. It's not hard to imagine since they're very SPL focused, which doesn't make them decay well so modes can be really bad.
Fascinating to read...i have never heard Funk nor JL, but heard excellent things about both, as well as the Paradigm Sub2. By any chance have you heard the Velodyne DD+ series? I like its adjustability. I use it below 40hz (36db rolloff above that). Thanks for any comments, good bad or indifferent. I have often wondered what JL, Funk, Paradigm and Wilson Thor might all do differently/better.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Ron, I'll install your digital. Can I have a soft drink?
 

Duke LeJeune

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
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So two or four double stacks of Funk Audio 18” drivers (four or eight 18” drivers in total) with Nathan’s strongest magnetic structure...

I spend most of my time in the prosound world (primarily high-end bass guitar cabs), and in my opinion motor strength definitely is an under-appreciated factor, as is motor-strength-to-moving-mass ratio. Both correlate with improved impact. I think you made the best choice there.

With aluminum panels encased in a Baltic birch box exterior box the weight of the caninet will be about 400 pounds, not quite the weight of a Wilson Audio Subsonic. (Or is better damping achieved if the interior box is Baltic birch and is surrounded by an exterior box of aluminum?)

Follow Nathan's advice! If he is leaving it totally up to you, then my instinct would be to put the stiffest material on the outside, which would be the aluminium (<- said with British accent).

And all of this is for Jack and for LL21 so that when each of them visits me in Los Angeles and wants to play some “deep house” he’s not disappointed!

About that... you might want to check with the US Geological Survey first... there's this thing called the San Andreas Fault...
 
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Leif S

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You can always switch phase by reversing speaker leads Ron.
david
The problem with that is it only lets you choose 0 to 180 and nothing in between. Our subs are never set at 0 or 180. It's almost always somewhere between.
 

Ron Resnick

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The problem with that is it only lets you choose 0 to 180 and nothing in between. Our subs are never set at 0 or 180. It's almost always somewhere between.

The Wilson Audio Watch Controller has continuously adjustable phase.
 

microstrip

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(...) I don’t think anybody thinks it is per se wacky to consider using subwoofers with XLFs in a medium-size or larger room. After all Wilson Audio made Thor’s Hammers for XLFs long before the Master Chronosonic and Subsonic.

IMHO the answer will be mainly dictated by your room behavior at low frequencies. In my long room (31") with very solid walls adding subwoofers to the XLF improved significantly sound quality. I have been using the JL Audio JL113mk2 with the CR1 analog crossover with success - mostly not bass, but more air, more space, more depth and a better feeling of being there. Although the XLF's response in my room extended down to 19 Hz, measurements confirmed why - the subs fill a small band that otherwise was cancelled by front wall reflection. Although I used the auto calibration of the JLAudio subs the CR1 was however needed to blend the subs to the XLF's.

The improvement was enough to trigger my curiosity to an all Wilson solution - I have now got a pair of Watchdog controllers and a Watchdog sub - I hope soon I will get another one.

Ron, just to keep the flame on, please read Roy Gregory article on Audiobeat http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/wilson_audio_alexx_thors_hammer.htm - he says it much better than me! And yes, it seems is true ... As always, IMHO and YMMV.

BTW, I would never consider subs without measurements - too many things to go wrong! But final adjustment must be by ear.
 

Duke LeJeune

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Although the XLF's response in my room extended down to 19 Hz, measurements confirmed why - the subs fill a small band that otherwise was cancelled by front wall reflection.

Just curious, where are your JLs in relation to the Alexandrias? And/or, are you using the phase control on the JLs?
 

Ron Resnick

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Thank you, Francisco. I know that audiobeat report well!
 

microstrip

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Just curious, where are your JLs in relation to the Alexandrias? And/or, are you using the phase control on the JLs?

The JL Audio's are close to the front corners and the speakers are 8 feet away from the front wall . I have to adjust the phase in the subs, the JL1 crossover does not allow phase adjustment. IMHO one of the good points of subs when owning extended bass speakers is being able to excite the room far from the main speakers best position for imaging.
 
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Duke LeJeune

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The JL Audio's are close to the front corners and the speakers are 8 feet away from the front wall.

That's pretty good spatial distribution of your four bass sources in the horizontal plane, and you got the subs to fill in the room-induced dip of the mains. Very nice.
 
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ddk

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The problem with that is it only lets you choose 0 to 180 and nothing in between. Our subs are never set at 0 or 180. It's almost always somewhere between.
Hi Leif,
Based on Duke’s explanation phase inversion and these in between settings aren’t the same thing. In one case you’re actually reversing the physical movement of the cone while the partial settings affect timing of the cones firing out of sync with main speakers irrespective of the phase. Does the 180 setting in your speakers actually reverse the phase or is it just another timing setting like the rest of them?
david
 

Leif S

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Hi Leif,
Based on Duke’s explanation phase inversion and these in between settings aren’t the same thing. In one case you’re actually reversing the physical movement of the cone while the partial settings affect timing of the cones firing out of sync with main speakers irrespective of the phase. Does the 180 setting in your speakers actually reverse the phase or is it just another timing setting like the rest of them?
david
Hi David,

Sorry I missed this post

On our subs our amps are actually inverting the phase which is different than all the other subs I've played with. We had them designed that way.
 

ddk

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Hi David,

Sorry I missed this post

On our subs our amps are actually inverting the phase which is different than all the other subs I've played with. We had them designed that way.

Hi Leif,
So your subs are always out of phase with the rest of the speaker, I guess my question now is if your 180 setting brings them in phase with the rest of the speaker or is it a timing/sync setting like the other settings?

david
 
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Leif S

Industry Expert
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Hi Leif,
So your subs are always out of phase with the rest of the speaker, I guess my question now is if your 180 setting bring them in phase with the rest of the speaker or is it a timing/sync setting like the other settings?

david
Our subs can work either way. They can be 100% in phase or 100% out of phase. Everything in between has to do with just timing. There is no timing at 0 phase or 180
 
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Ron Resnick

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Nathan Funk followed up with a blessing of the swarm concept:

“I was also thinking about the overall setup and with the controllers your looking at using with variable phase, while not as good as a time “delay” function to properly align all the subwoofers its possible you could get good results with 4 subwoofers placed around the room. It would for sure take a lot more time and effort to dial it all in to maximize the potential but the end results could be better, all comes down to overall room acoustics really. As I mentioned the only downside to each driver having its own cabinet x4, vs 2 drivers in each cabinet x2 is that the cost would be a bit higher. You could always stack them if two locations worked best, but it would give you more flexibility if 4 locations did turn out to work better.”


So the gap between Duke’s view and Nathan’s view has narrowed in this case.

I asked Nathan about the common view as to whether it might be better to use three 15” inch drivers rather than two 18” drivers since the 15” drivers should be “faster.”

Nathan replied:

“The best balance is to have as low of mass you can, while providing the perfect amount of motor “traction” to match the power available. With our ultra series motor the 21” is about the perfect match, the 18” does have a tiny bit lower distortion in the super low end but its starting to run out of “traction” already, the motor is really maxing out the cone area, so going to a smaller cone yet would not yield any benefits at all. For your specific needs, 10-30hz, the 18” is the perfect match and will yield the lowest distortion, the 15” would be only as good for distortion but would have lower output, and or require more of them driving the cost up to get that same output. If you were limited on cabinet footprint, a 3x15” would be a good choice but the 2x18” is the way to go otherwise.”

I still like the height of two 18” drivers in one box. Nathan has decided that he thinks the interior box should be made of aluminum panels, with Baltic Birch panels on the exterior of the aluminum box.

I give Folsom credit for promoting the custom idea for this project. It is nice that Nathan is designing a custom, low distortion, low impedance load solution focused on 10Hz to 30Hz from two 18” drivers using his strongest motor assembly. Throw in aluminum interior panels (thank you for this idea, Magico), and this 400 pound box should be a pretty serious, old-school passive subwoofer.

And all so Jack and Lloyd don’t ask: “Where’s the beef?” :D

Four 18” cones should make a lot of woofing! (Does Spotify list submarine movie soundtracks? Haha!)
 
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