Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Mike Lavigne]

I have found mass damping mine worked well...but it took A LOT of weight to still the sub during high-excursion (action flicks)...however now when we play them, we have photographs on top of the sub, and they do not move even a 1/16th of an inch...we have left a post-it notes distance between objects and the post-it still slides through after the movie.

But it took nearly 200lbs of weights on top of proper damping plates...but it really works...and yes, the bass is tighter with better definition between low bass signals.

my bass towers weigh 750 pounds each. they sit on a concrete floor.

weight/mass matters for optimal articulation in the deepest octaves.

 

[LL21]

I have found mass damping mine worked well...but it took A LOT of weight to still the sub during high-excursion (action flicks)...however now when we play them, we have photographs on top of the sub, and they do not move even a 1/16th of an inch...we have left a post-it notes distance between objects and the post-it still slides through after the movie.

But it took nearly 200lbs of weights on top of proper damping plates...but it really works...and yes, the bass is tighter with better definition between low bass signals.

You hit that point right on, to actually make a difference in this aspect you need massive amounts of extra weight, the difference in weight of something like our 18.0, 115lbs vs your DD18 at 142lbs, makes no difference whatsoever. You have to get into the several hundred pound class to be worth adding mass for the sake of mass, and the difference that can be had with this is much smaller than what happens if the cabinet itself is not solid. Interestingly in the case of 18.0 and DD18 the entirety, if not more, of the weight difference is in the driver magnet, neo vs ceramic, so the cabinets themselves weigh about the same.

Wow...an honor to hear from Funk directly...your reputation clearly precedes you as a serious and respected designer of great subs! I am always cautious of asking questions from experts about their thoughts on design...else they become drawn into debates which devolve into fights, insults...

That said, I would really love to know some 'basics' from an industry expert about your observations (not asking for 'good vs bad') regarding some basic approaches:
- 'solid aluminum' active with massive cabinetry (ie, 400lbs) route
- 'super-duper-servo' in active box route
- old fashioned 'size matters 5 foot tall passive monster with separate amp' route
- use 4 smaller subs...and just focus on the maze of set up options and get it right

I am sure each has its pros/cons...but would love ANY kind of commentary as an expert who no doubt understands how each design strategy works.

 

[LL21]

my bass towers weigh 750 pounds each. they sit on a concrete floor.

weight/mass matters for optimal articulation in the deepest octaves.

And there you go...i will say, for me, any move to the next gen of speakers is either going to be 4-tower of some sort or something seriously big (Arrakis, Gryphon, YG, Evolution Acoustics)...mainly because (not being a detail freak), i really enjoy the resolution of what I've got...and it is effortlessness and scale which really make the magic for me now.

 

[marty]

my bass towers weigh 750 pounds each. they sit on a concrete floor.

weight/mass matters for optimal articulation in the deepest octaves.

I agree Mike. (My Gothams sit firmly on a concrete floor as well) But what I don't understand is the preference of many to put their subs and or FR speakers on devices that move; i.e. Stillpoints or other "damping" devices. I recall reading that Alon Wolf once said that the only thing that makes sense is to put speakers on points that couple tightly to the floor. But then when the M3 came out, he changed his mind and advocated their (mucho expensive) pods under his speakers. It seems like these approaches are diametrically opposed and that both can't be right. Yet it's a popular option for many here. Any insights would be appreciated.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I agree Mike. (My Gothams sit firmly on a concrete floor as well) But what I don't understand is the preference of many to put their subs and or FR speakers on devices that move; i.e. Stillpoints or other "damping" devices. I recall reading that Alon Wolf once said that the only thing that makes sense is to put speakers on points that couple tightly to the floor. But then when the M3 came out, he changed his mind and advocated their (mucho expensive) pods under his speakers. It seems like these approaches are diametrically opposed and that both can't be right. Yet it's a popular option for many here. Any insights would be appreciated.

thanks Marty.

i'm not an engineer or physicist, so i only have my observations to refer to. my viewpoint is that weight and mass are essential, but you cannot generalize about the floor interface. each case is different.

my bass towers are massive, dense, and very heavy; but i use the Wave Kinetics 2NS footers under my speaker spikes as the floor interface.

http://www.chambersaudio.com/product/wave-kinetics-2ns-loudspeaker-interface-system/


i think with the mass of my towers they don't need the additional structural benefit of being spiked into the floor. however; more real world cabinet designs might typically realize a net benefit from direct floor coupling. in my case, the reduced cabinet-floor feedback is the net gain in my experience. my over-the-top mass allows for more choices.

 

[LL21]

I agree Mike. (My Gothams sit firmly on a concrete floor as well) But what I don't understand is the preference of many to put their subs and or FR speakers on devices that move; i.e. Stillpoints or other "damping" devices. I recall reading that Alon Wolf once said that the only thing that makes sense is to put speakers on points that couple tightly to the floor. But then when the M3 came out, he changed his mind and advocated their (mucho expensive) pods under his speakers. It seems like these approaches are diametrically opposed and that both can't be right. Yet it's a popular option for many here. Any insights would be appreciated.

I am no techie...i can only say that sticking the Velodyne on a 19th Century suspended wood floor (wood beams over stone/brick foundation pillars)...creates MASSIVE resonance and rumble across the floor. By putting the Sub on top of an Auralex subwoofer isolation platform...that rumble disappeared...and then the tightness of the bass further improved dramatically by 'sandwiching' the sub between 200lbs of dead weight on top of Artesania Damping plates ON TOP of the sub...and Stillpoints U5s directly underneath the sub and sitting on top of the Auralex isolation platform which sits directly on the floor).

It took a while to get to this 'solution'...i somehow feel like the Auralex largely removed floor interaction...and the 'isolation sandwich' is about reducing the vibration that comes from the moving cones, internally-driven vibrations, etc. Overall, the entire solution enables the sub to operate [relatively] more on its own...without all the messy wood beam/flooring direct interaction and general self-induced vibrations.

 

[Kingsrule]

thanks Marty.

i'm not an engineer or physicist, so i only have my observations to refer to. my viewpoint is that weight and mass are essential, but you cannot generalize about the floor interface. each case is different.

my bass towers are massive, dense, and very heavy; but i use the Wave Kinetics 2NS footers under my speaker spikes as the floor interface.

http://www.chambersaudio.com/product/wave-kinetics-2ns-loudspeaker-interface-system/

View attachment 49620
i think with the mass of my towers they don't need the additional structural benefit of being spiked into the floor. however; more real world cabinet designs might typically realize a net benefit from direct floor coupling. in my case, the reduced cabinet-floor feedback is the net gain in my experience. my over-the-top mass allows for more choices.

I have a set of these for sale. 8 footers to a set. PM if interested...

 

[Folsom]

I am no techie...i can only say that sticking the Velodyne on a 19th Century suspended wood floor (wood beams over stone/brick foundation pillars)...creates MASSIVE resonance and rumble across the floor. By putting the Sub on top of an Auralex subwoofer isolation platform...that rumble disappeared...and then the tightness of the bass further improved dramatically by 'sandwiching' the sub between 200lbs of dead weight on top of Artesania Damping plates ON TOP of the sub...and Stillpoints U5s directly underneath the sub and sitting on top of the Auralex isolation platform which sits directly on the floor).

It took a while to get to this 'solution'...i somehow feel like the Auralex largely removed floor interaction...and the 'isolation sandwich' is about reducing the vibration that comes from the moving cones, internally-driven vibrations, etc. Overall, the entire solution enables the sub to operate [relatively] more on its own...without all the messy wood beam/flooring direct interaction and general self-induced vibrations.

If your floor has zero vibration then you have canceled all the frequencies below about 25hz. You can’t hear them, you must feel them. Maybe your chair can catch some? There’s definitely a balance.

 

[LL21]

If your floor has zero vibration then you have canceled all the frequencies below about 25hz. You can’t hear them, you must feel them. Maybe your chair can catch some? There’s definitely a balance.

Thank you! I would say you can definitely feel the air shudder around you, and throughout the furniture during some music and definitely during action flicks. If you turn off the sub, that drops dramatically.

I have not put my hand on the floor to really test it...but it certainly does not 'woof/rumble' like it used to. I will check tonite! Frankly, i have put the subsonic filter on (ie, below 15hz) which helped keep 'something' from seeming out of control during action flicks.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

You hit that point right on, to actually make a difference in this aspect you need massive amounts of extra weight, the difference in weight of something like our 18.0, 115lbs vs your DD18 at 142lbs, makes no difference whatsoever. You have to get into the several hundred pound class to be worth adding mass for the sake of mass, and the difference that can be had with this is much smaller than what happens if the cabinet itself is not solid. Interestingly in the case of 18.0 and DD18 the entirety, if not more, of the weight difference is in the driver magnet, neo vs ceramic, so the cabinets themselves weigh about the same.

Hi Nathan! Welcome!!

I've admired your creations from afar ever since I first stumbled across them. Massively elegant, massively capable.

 

[NorthStar]

You hit that point right on, to actually make a difference in this aspect you need massive amounts of extra weight, the difference in weight of something like our 18.0, 115lbs vs your DD18 at 142lbs, makes no difference whatsoever. You have to get into the several hundred pound class to be worth adding mass for the sake of mass, and the difference that can be had with this is much smaller than what happens if the cabinet itself is not solid. Interestingly in the case of 18.0 and DD18 the entirety, if not more, of the weight difference is in the driver magnet, neo vs ceramic, so the cabinets themselves weigh about the same.

The craftsmanship (woodwork) on your Subwoofers and Loudspeakers is awesome.
Welcome neighbor.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Welcome to WBF, Nathan!

We are honored that you are participating here! Thank you for answering our questions!

 

[Ron Resnick]

After numerous instances of seeing how neighborly it is to be handed an iPad and to search around for any song I choose to play on a friend's personal system or on a dealer's demo system I have decided to reciprocate this hospitality to future visitors to my future stereo in my future listening room in my future house by offering the same capability. I am not doing this for me; I am doing this for you.

So . . . I am arranging to purchase a used Innuos Zenith SE, and I shall search for an MSB Premier in due course, as well as an MSB Pro USB and an MSB Pro ISL. This is not in any way an effort to build a digital playback capability equal to the vinyl and tape set-ups. Whatever I get for streaming I do not intend to pursue any upgrade process, let alone a never-ending upgrade cycle. I seek to have only a moderately respectable streaming capability for friends to use when they visit.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-without-a-computer-like-spotify.27636/page-1

Thanks to all participants on the above thread who patiently taught me about streaming and subscription services and digital signal interfaces!

PS: If you tell me I will have to A/B compare the sound of different ethernet cables to connect the Innuos to my wi-fi router I will abort the entire project.

 

[Folsom]

If I ever get to stop by, I’m bringing vinyl!

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . i use the Wave Kinetics 2NS footers under my speaker spikes as the floor interface.

http://www.chambersaudio.com/product/wave-kinetics-2ns-loudspeaker-interface-system/

View attachment 49620
i think with the mass of my towers they don't need the additional structural benefit of being spiked into the floor. . . .

Mike, just to be clear, your main towers are on spikes, and you put these Wave Kinetics footers under the spikes to protect your wood floor, because your main towers are so heavy that they do not need the sonic advantage of being coupled to the floor by only the spikes?

 

[Lagonda]

After numerous instances of seeing how neighborly it is to be handed an iPad and to search around for any song I choose to play on a friend's personal system or on a dealer's demo system I have decided to reciprocate this hospitality to future visitors to my future stereo in my future listening room in my future house by offering the same capability. I am not doing this for me; I am doing this for you.

So . . . I am arranging to purchase a used Innuos Zenith SE, and I shall search for an MSB Premier in due course, as well as an MSB Pro USB and an MSB Pro ISL. This is not in any way an effort to build a digital playback capability equal to the vinyl and tape set-ups. Whatever I get I do not intend to pursue any upgrade process, let alone a never-ending upgrade cycle. I seek to have only a moderately respectable streaming capability for friends to use when they visit.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-without-a-computer-like-spotify.27636/page-1

Thanks to all participants on the above thread who patiently taught me about streaming and subscription services and digital signal interfaces!

PS: If you tell me I will have to A/B compare the sound of different ethernet cables to connect the Innuos to my wi-fi router I will abort the entire project.

I am sure Tinka and your favorite cartridges will thank you for your decision

 

[Ron Resnick]

Tinka supports having this capability for friends.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, just to be clear, your main towers are on spikes, and you put these Wave Kinetics footers under the spikes to protect your wood floor, because your main towers are so heavy that they do not need the sonic advantage of being coupled to the floor by only the spikes?

Ron,

no, the 2NS footers are related to performance purely. i have a few different sets of floor protectors i can use for the spikes to fit into as an alternative to protect the wood glued over concrete flooring, but the 2NS are preferred by me for that little bit of smear reduction and added definition. i make no claims of plug and play for these footers, nor do i claim they are the singularly the best for this purpose. there are other decoupling speaker footers that could be better. and every speaker cabinet <-> floor interface will react to footers differently.

my 2 cents is that this is part of room tuning and should be approached with an open mind and ears without preconceived notion.

as far as my cabinets being dense and heavy; my 'guess' is that is why direct floor coupling is not essential for solidity. they are solid enough to be decoupled without any loss of focus. possibly less dense cabinets need that full connection with the floor. this is purely my supposition/guess.

we are talking here about driver inertia affecting distortion, by causing offset cabinet movement and therefore less than precise waveform launch. how much mass and density does it take to be able to have decoupling footers? with a concrete floor? apparently 750 pounds seems to work.

and these do work for me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just subscribed to Qobuz hi-res, and then I compared the same song on Spotify versus Qobuz. The Qobuz CD quality does indeed sound better than MP3 on Spotify. (Ugh! so now I have to replicate my Spotify song list with hundreds of tracks to Qobuz? )

Then, I added Qobuz to Sonos. So I guess I will be able to play Qobuz through the every-room music distribution system in the house.

So is there anything we still need Spotify for???

 

[asiufy]

I just subscribed to Qobuz hi-res, and then I compared the same song on Spotify versus Qobuz. The Qobuz CD quality does indeed sound better than MP3 on Spotify. (Ugh! so now I have to replicate my Spotify song list with hundreds of tracks to Qobuz? )

Then, I added Qobuz to Sonos. So I guess I will be able to play Qobuz through the every-room music distribution system in the house.

So is there anything we still need Spotify for???

Absolutely nothing.
Use this tool to transfer your favorites, playlists, etc

https://soundiiz.com