Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick

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Jan 25, 2015
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Absolutely nothing.
Use this tool to transfer your favorites, playlists, etc

https://soundiiz.com
OMG! It worked! I just instantly transferred 322 out of 347 songs on Spotify to Qobuz!

Thank you, Alex.

(If you guys had told me that high-resolution digital could be this convenient I might’ve done this a long time ago! Seriously, Qobuz rocks!)
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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almaaudio.com
(If you guys had told me that high-resolution digital could be this convenient I might’ve done this a long time ago! Seriously, Qobuz rocks!)
I did, repeatedly :)
Glad you're enjoying it! And again, trust me when I say it, you want Roon :)
 

GMKF

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Aug 15, 2017
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After numerous instances of seeing how neighborly it is to be handed an iPad and to search around for any song I choose to play on a friend's personal system or on a dealer's demo system I have decided to reciprocate this hospitality to future visitors to my future stereo in my future listening room in my future house by offering the same capability. I am not doing this for me; I am doing this for you. :)

So . . . I am arranging to purchase a used Innuos Zenith SE, and I shall search for an MSB Premier in due course, as well as an MSB Pro USB and an MSB Pro ISL. This is not in any way an effort to build a digital playback capability equal to the vinyl and tape set-ups. Whatever I get for streaming I do not intend to pursue any upgrade process, let alone a never-ending upgrade cycle. I seek to have only a moderately respectable streaming capability for friends to use when they visit.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-without-a-computer-like-spotify.27636/page-1

Thanks to all participants on the above thread who patiently taught me about streaming and subscription services and digital signal interfaces!

PS: If you tell me I will have to A/B compare the sound of different ethernet cables to connect the Innuos to my wi-fi router I will abort the entire project.
And I taught Ron was the last person to buy a digital rig. But I am pleasantly surprised to say the least. Good decision :)
Is a solid state amp next ? Although the VTL amps you bought are highly competent.

And there are some great genres that sadly can only be discovered/enjoyed with digital... (75% of music I listen to...)
 

Hi-FiGuy

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Feb 24, 2015
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I just subscribed to Qobuz hi-res, and then I compared the same song on Spotify versus Qobuz. The Qobuz CD quality does indeed sound better than MP3 on Spotify. (Ugh! so now I have to replicate my Spotify song list with hundreds of tracks to Qobuz? :eek::mad:)

Then, I added Qobuz to Sonos. So I guess I will be able to play Qobuz through the every-room music distribution system in the house. :D

So is there anything we still need Spotify for???
Ha, I have been doing the same thing and am about to cancel the Spotify.
 

Ron Resnick

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The Qobuz app is not quite as easy-peezy, user-friendly as Spotify.
 

christoph

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Dec 12, 2015
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Principality of Liechtenstein

LL21

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If your floor has zero vibration then you have canceled all the frequencies below about 25hz. You can’t hear them, you must feel them. Maybe your chair can catch some? There’s definitely a balance.
So finally tested this...yes on deep house, you can feel deep bass in the floor and furniture. But at least you dont get the uncontrolled warble that we used to when the Sub was not On the Auralex Subwoofer Isolation platform (and was just sitting directly over a suspended wood floor structure). Thanks for your insights!
 
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Dec 15, 2014
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www.funkaudio.ca
Wow...an honor to hear from Funk directly...your reputation clearly precedes you as a serious and respected designer of great subs! I am always cautious of asking questions from experts about their thoughts on design...else they become drawn into debates which devolve into fights, insults...

That said, I would really love to know some 'basics' from an industry expert about your observations (not asking for 'good vs bad') regarding some basic approaches:
- 'solid aluminum' active with massive cabinetry (ie, 400lbs) route
- 'super-duper-servo' in active box route
- old fashioned 'size matters 5 foot tall passive monster with separate amp' route
- use 4 smaller subs...and just focus on the maze of set up options and get it right

I am sure each has its pros/cons...but would love ANY kind of commentary as an expert who no doubt understands how each design strategy works.
Nothing really wrong with any of those approaches and the best fit varies with application. A few thoughts on each though;
- 'solid aluminum' active with massive cabinetry (ie, 400lbs) route
I don't like solid aluminum by itself, best when combined with other materials like birch plywood so the materials can "help" each other. But a crazy solid enclosure that is 300lbs+ is for sure a good thing, but only if the mass is high enough to actually make a difference, besides that dual opposed designs are a good way to go as well although they have some limitations too.

- 'super-duper-servo' in active box route
Servos are a great way to correct driver non linearities and reduce distortion, and provide "q" control, however they are only cost effective up to a point, once you reach a certain level there are better ways to accomplish the same low distortion and control that not only work better but offer some good side affects like increased efficiency.

- old fashioned 'size matters 5 foot tall passive monster with separate amp' route
Similar to the first comment but I saved active v passive for here; The pros to the amp built in are that the amp is perfectly matched to the subwoofer by design, and it maintains the highest possible damping factor at the driver, the cons are that is your only choice for amp. The pros to separate amps is that you have more options, cons are then you have to determine what will work best within the limitations of the chosen amp and or sub design(custom subs help a lot with that aspect as you can optimize for a given amp)

- use 4 smaller subs...and just focus on the maze of set up options and get it right
This is a big topic, 1,2,3,4,-infinity, how many subs are best(spread around and correctly setup/optimized)? Most people will say the higher the number the better, and one is never a good idea, period. This is not "always" the case. Every room and setup is different, and yes while usually "more is better" its not always true. I have done rooms where there was one sub location when dialed in gave crazy good response across the whole seating area, in one room like that we ran many combinations of 1,2,3,4,6 subs all around the room, and compared to 1 only when we got to 6 did it get back to as good(not considering all the extra output of course), with 2,3, or 4 no matter what we did it was actually worse. That is a rare case but I think its more common than many think that 1 or 2 works perfectly good and more either doesn't help or actually makes things worse, even if correctly setup. My point is that yes "generally" more is better but to make assumptions about the correct number for any given space without testing(or simulating withing the limitations of the simulator) is a bad idea. Usually if you really don't know what works in your space I recommend 2 subs.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Wow...thank you FUNK! This is incredible...have copied and pasted to save it in my folders!
 
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May 30, 2010
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(...)

- use 4 smaller subs...and just focus on the maze of set up options and get it right
This is a big topic, 1,2,3,4,-infinity, how many subs are best(spread around and correctly setup/optimized)? Most people will say the higher the number the better, and one is never a good idea, period. This is not "always" the case. Every room and setup is different, and yes while usually "more is better" its not always true. I have done rooms where there was one sub location when dialed in gave crazy good response across the whole seating area, in one room like that we ran many combinations of 1,2,3,4,6 subs all around the room, and compared to 1 only when we got to 6 did it get back to as good(not considering all the extra output of course), with 2,3, or 4 no matter what we did it was actually worse. That is a rare case but I think its more common than many think that 1 or 2 works perfectly good and more either doesn't help or actually makes things worse, even if correctly setup. My point is that yes "generally" more is better but to make assumptions about the correct number for any given space without testing(or simulating withing the limitations of the simulator) is a bad idea. Usually if you really don't know what works in your space I recommend 2 subs.
Again IMHO we can't address this issue without debating how we control the subs and what objective we are aiming.

For example, the original Toole configuration, Arcos by Harman and Gueddes have very different techniques to drive the multi subs - and the objectives were different, as they addressed large area HT or small listener area for stereo.
 
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RogerD

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May 23, 2010
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If your floor has zero vibration then you have canceled all the frequencies below about 25hz. You can’t hear them, you must feel them. Maybe your chair can catch some? There’s definitely a balance.
Having a dual 16 that weighs approximately 1000 pounds and a FSR-18 with about 125 lbs added to it, the bass below 25 hz has always shook the entire house. But by far the most positive effect on the total bass character has been removing distortion from the audio signal.
I now have 8-6” mid bass, 2-10’s,2-16’s,1-18 and the bass has changed completely for the better. Moving a lot of air and that being capable of being very articulate has been a revelation. Cabinet rigidity is important too.
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 25, 2015
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The fellow who agreed to sell me the Innuos Zenith SE decided not to proceed, so I will be on the look-out for a silver one.

In the meantime I await Marty’s report on his new Innuos streamer.
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron Resnick

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Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
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www.seatonsound.net
Nothing really wrong with any of those approaches and the best fit varies with application. A few thoughts on each though;

- old fashioned 'size matters 5 foot tall passive monster with separate amp' route
Similar to the first comment but I saved active v passive for here; The pros to the amp built in are that the amp is perfectly matched to the subwoofer by design, and it maintains the highest possible damping factor at the driver, the cons are that is your only choice for amp. The pros to separate amps is that you have more options, cons are then you have to determine what will work best within the limitations of the chosen amp and or sub design(custom subs help a lot with that aspect as you can optimize for a given amp)
Good to see you here Nathan. Ron - Nathan can certainly create a solution that performs and looks the part of what you are after.

I want to re-iterate that the quest for the ultra low frequency extension and not using DSP, and using standard amplifiers without signal manipulation beyond a low pass places some significant design constraints in achieving the goal. They can certainly be overcome, but just understand that to get really deep without added EQ, plan on boxes at least 4x the volume of what you might typically see on the market per given size woofer.

Physics dominates here where you can ONLY increase efficiency with large boxes. I wouldn't worry about the woofer diameter, especially with the custom, neodymium motor designs Nathan has. Woofer behavior does scale, and just as you likened the multiple 8" woofers in your Pendragons to a 15" woofer, a 21" woofer isn't that much different than a pair of 15" woofers or a little more than 3 12" woofers. So long as the mass and motor qualities scale with the cone area, behavior remains extremely similar. One difference is the large cone diameter for the surround and bigger voice coils and frames typically used on larger drivers makes it easier to allow for very linear behavior at higher excursions.

For many reasons, not the least being cost, we do see many larger woofers having a motor that is closely related or even the same as used on smaller drivers. In these cases the box requirements no longer scale to box size, as the same motor on a 12" vs 18" means the 12" has 2x the motor. This can work for or against you, depending on priorities and design limitations, but this non-intuitive relationship means many big woofers end up in boxes that are too small and give big woofers a bad name.

Before committing to any subwoofer solution I would measure what you are getting from your Pendragons, and grab a small sealed sub to move around many possible subwoofer locations while measuring from the listening positon.

Did I mention you should be planning on rather large sealed boxes? ;)

(or at least multiple boxes that combine to what would make for a large sealed subwofer)
 
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Ron Resnick

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Thank you very much, Mark! I appreciate -- and I will follow -- your advice!
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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What a great amount of insight and feedback, Mark Seaton! Thanks for a great read...
 
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Ron Resnick

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Thanks to our amazing and incredibly talented WBF cartoonist, Jim (Woofer & Tweet), I gave to Tinka for our anniversary this cartoon which sums up our audio adventures:



4386D484-6DCC-4CFC-A5DC-6965F615FE2D.png


Tinka is not always interested in the audio aspects of our trips, but she is always up to travel anywhere, anytime — the more exotic the better. When she asks if there are any turntable manufacturers in Zimbabwe, this is what pops into my head.
 
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