SAT XD-1 Turntable Debut at The Audio Salon

[Ron Resnick]

Which makes me wonder what people think about an audio reviewer receiving compensation for demonstrating a product. Is that okay?

Dear Tim,

You know I am a big fan of your writing. I find this comment to seem neutral superficially, but in fact it is a snooty-snog because you are implicitly criticizing Michael while ducking responsibility by not referring to him explicitly and by structuring the comment as a rhetorical question.

At least as bad is the fact that you are assuming the conclusion and implying that Michael was (at the last Audio Salon demo) and is (at the demo on June 1) demonstrating a product. I am here to report that Michael played DJ and nothing more. I am sure he expressed his view that the system sounded great, but that was the opinion of most of the attendees.

Peter demonstrated the speaker system and Nishikawa-san demonstrated the turntable. Michael played DJ (and he played a very interesting variety of tracks!) and nothing more. I would not characterize anything Michael did as demonstrating a product.

Yes, Michael likes Wilson Audio speakers (he has owned them for many years) and, yes, he likes the SAT tonearm (among other tonearms). So what? I am sure he enjoys listening to the Wilson Chronosonic and Subsonic loudspeaker system whenever he has the opportunity to do so. So do I!

 

[BruceD]

It is obvious in this thread "inferences" and"fact" have become casualties of decorum.

My feeling is no party in this will come out smelling of Roses.

Sadly I agree with Marty it is an unproductive thread that can only generate more angst.

Time to put it to bed?

BruceD

 

[tima]

tima, another reviewer, I do not know him; however, a question comes to mind....does he have his own successful commercial business and webpage; for example, like MF’s AP?

Hello - I've been a reviewer for fifteen years. I've been at university and in private business, never as an owner and not related to audio. I'm published with a variety of e-Zines but do not have a Web page.

I answered your questions, now tell me why they are relevant.

 

[Ron Resnick]

To make a guest appearance for a demo isn't the issue my problem is with a compensated reviewer aggressively pushing wares of a particular dealer at the same time .

david

Dear David,

Like Tim, it is a snooty-snog because we know you are referring to Michael, but not taking responsibility for saying so explicitly.

What is the particular demo (time and place) to which you are referring at which Michael aggressively pushed Maier Shadi's products?

 

[Ron Resnick]

If the compensation is from the dealer/manufacturer whose wares are the ones raved about, that's payola.

It is a good thing that you are not a district attorney, because with this sloppy analysis a lot of innocent people would wind up in jail.

If a reviewer is paid travel expenses and compensation to function as the MC or DJ at an audio dealer's demo of new products, and the reviewer subsequently raves about the products (I certainly raved about the sound I heard at Maier's first demo of Wilson WAMM + Air Force Zero) I personally see no ethical issue or conflict of interest provided (i) the compensation paid is reasonable and (ii) the reviewer's opinion is honest and true. Explicit disclosure of the fact of compensation and from whom would be very cleansing.

In your post you suggest that compensation + rave review = fraud as a matter of absolute liability. Isn't this obviously wrong?* Mustn’t the actual factual analysis drive the conclusion?

* I think it is totally fine to favor a rule of absolute liability here, if you wish. It would not be my choice, but it certainly is a valid preference. Such a rule would moot concern about all such scenarios. I am wondering if that really is your intention and proposal.

 

[Ron Resnick]

MAKES ME WONDER WHERE YOU GOT THE IDEA THAT I AM BEING COMPENSATED FOR THIS. DID YOU MAKE UP THIS SHIT? Or pull it from some other wanker’s butt? I do not appreciate LIES spread about me by YENTAS.

Obviously, Michael, vulgarity is totally unbecoming of you -- and of the other members of the forum.

Your first sentence alone would have succeeded in shifting to DDK the burden of proving his factual allegation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am not being compensated. . . .

This fact completely moots Tima's and DDK's concern.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .Fact is that you put yourself and your reputation out there for this brand like no other before to the point of getting into aggressive arguments with people over this brand’s unproven engineering claims in open forums when there was only one size. . .

Here you are using Michael's defense of his acceptance of Marc's personal preference for his 9" tonearm to suggest that Michael is promoting unproven engineering claims. I never interpreted that whole discussion that way.

If Marc Gomez himself prefers his 9" tonearm in practice why in the world would anyone dispute that based on theory?

I do not agree that Michael has put his reputation out for SAT "like no other before." Michael has reviewed the original SAT tonearm and the revised SAT tonearms and continues to like them very much. He has done for SAT no more and no less than he has done for many, many other products he has really liked and owned over the years. I think you are exaggerating here to support a dubious initial argument.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Let me add my voice to the chorus of people who correctly praised Mike Lavigne as an extremely honest person. He is one of our revered senior WBF members and one of the most experienced audiophiles alive. His honesty and integrity are unassailable.

* * *

Obviously I have only this evening been able to parse through this entire thread.

If there are any other comments on the day's fireworks here they may be submitted to my Comments Clerk who will forward to me any submission which has been thoughtfully and thoroughly briefed.

Absent compliance with this formal procedure let's all please move on, have a scotch and a good night's sleep, and look forward to what will undoubtedly be a very interesting demo on June 1 -- about which all attendees should dutifully report!

Thank you!

 

[BruceD]

Ron--well stated --you missed your calling--you should run for Office!!!

BruceD

 

[tima]

You know I am a big fan of your writing. I find this comment to seem neutral superficially, but in fact it is a snooty-snog because you are implicitly criticizing Michael while ducking responsibility by not referring to him explicitly and by structuring the comment as a rhetorical question.

At least as bad is the fact that you are assuming the conclusion and implying that Michael was (at the last Audio Salon demo) and is (at the demo on June 1) demonstrating a product. I am here to report that Michael played DJ and nothing more. I am sure he expressed his view that the system sounded great, but that was the opinion of most of the attendees.

"... In fact ..."

Dear Ron - It may be a fact the perturbations of your thought process brought you to say what you do, but please do not ascribe them to anything I've written. I'm surprised you so easily talk about the implicit motives of others in terms of fact.

I recognize there is a strong need broadly to defend or believe analogplanet by several forum members, yourself included, but I don't care why. I made no comment about him. Does he need your help to defend himself from made up criticism?

As I'm composing this it looks like we received a full helping of your thoughts and then told to move along.

 

[Ron Resnick]

"... In fact ..."

Dear Ron - It may be a fact the perturbations of your thought process brought you to say what you do, but please do not ascribe them to anything I've written. I'm surprised you so easily talk about the implicit motives of others in terms of fact.

. . .

Fair enough on this point. If you truly did not in any way have Michael or Maier’s demo sessions or SAT in mind when you wrote your initial post, then I apologize for assuming incorrectly that you did.

 

[Tango]

Ron. Are you just sharing your opinions on this? Or is there something you want to get out of these comments. What is it that you expect to see after you made these comments. I highly value the comments of Steve William because they put people in perspectives and have clear objective for people to move on ... not dragging the thread further off fairway. Bruce is right on target on his comment below.

It is obvious in this thread "inferences" and"fact" have become casualties of decorum.

My feeling is no party in this will come out smelling of Roses.

Sadly I agree with Marty it is an unproductive thread that can only generate more angst.

Time to put it to bed?

BruceD

Everyone has his own perspective on this quarrel. I believe many including I just dont think there is anything to get out of commenting further about each side. No need for people outside the ring to make things worse. Taking side won't help.

Let's move on. What is the material of the plinth? Is there any vibration management in the design of this SAT tt.?

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[TLi]

Ron. Are you just sharing your opinions on this? Or is there something you want to get out of these comments. What is it that you expect to see after you made these comments. I highly value the comments of Steve William because they put people in perspectives and have clear objective for people to move on ... not dragging the thread further off fairway. Bruce is right on target on his comment below.



Everyone has his own perspective on this quarrel. I believe many including I just dont think there is anything to get out of commenting further about each side. No need for people outside the ring to make things worse. Taking side won't help.

Let's move on. What is the material of the plinth? Is there any vibration management in the design of this SAT tt.?

Kind regards,
Tang

In Munich, Marc explained to me that the plinth is spring loaded for vibration control.

You can push the plinth sideways and it slides freely.

 

[dan31]

Any reason we can’t wait until the turntable is released and people get a chance to listen? It’s just a turntable.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron. Are you just sharing your opinions on this? Or is there something you want to get out of these comments. What is it that you expect to see after you made these comments. . . .

By weighing in as objectively as I could I hoped I could point out each side's inflammatory comments, give each side a calmer perspective on the other's comments, help to resolve the conflict, narrow the information gap and close the curtain on the animosity.

 

[Steve Williams]

It is obvious in this thread "inferences" and"fact" have become casualties of decorum.

My feeling is no party in this will come out smelling of Roses.

Sadly I agree with Marty it is an unproductive thread that can only generate more angst.

Time to put it to bed?

BruceD

I totally agree Bruce and you know how many times I have messaged you with kudos as I feel you are a man of reason. This plus the fact that one of my best friends (marty) made such spot on comments about the negativity of this thread

Does it really matter as marty asks if he likes vanilla and you like chocolate,? Is that life changing?

Trust me, it's more serious when you go to your doctor for test results and he walks in closes the door sits down and says "we need to talk !"

Part of the admin job here is to do some of the dirty work...hence my comments today in green to Michael regarding his behavior here but two wrongs don't make a right

Simply put and as Tang says, enough is enough.

Any further lobbing bombs or stirring the pot will result in the thread being closed

Personally I am hoping this doesn't occur as I a going to the demo in Santa Monica on Saturday and I am hoping to provide feedback as will I am sure so many of the other members here who will also be attending

 

[ALF]

Maier Shadi, proprietor of The Audio Salon in Santa Monica, California, is hosting Marc Gomez’ United States debut of the new SAT turntable:

“SAT presents the new XD1 Record Player System in the US at an exclusive event on June 1st from 12pm-6pm at The Audio Salon in Santa Monica, CA.

SAT's designer and founder, Marc Gomez, will go through the design and development of his latest CF1 and LM series of arms and explain the differences with the original SAT Pickup Arm. Gomez will also show the technical details about the XD1, explaining how a compact and minimalistic design can produce such a grand and effortless sound.

We have invited Michael Fremer to indulge the participants by presenting and playing some unique and amazing sounding records.

The XD1 will play on the Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic and Master Subsonic loudspeakers. Electronics by Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems, equipment stands by Harmonic Resolution Systems and wired together with Transparent Audio’s Magnum Opus cables. We will play our pick up arms with the Lyra Atlas SL and Ortofon MC Century cartridges.

This event will be an OPEN HOUSE (no rsvp necessary) with multiple presentations throughout the day.”

contact: Maier Shadi
The Audio Salon, Inc.
@ The Bergamot Station
2525 Michigan Ave (Gallery F1)
Santa Monica, CA 90404
Phone: 310.863.0863

I definitely will be going! I am curious for the turntable debut, but I really want to hear again vinyl on the Wilson Audio Chronosonic system!

Hi Steve, in fairness to Maier and the kind folks that will being doing the demonstration this weekend, maybe you could restart this thread with the above first post from Ron.

Kind Regards,
ALF

 

[cjfrbw]

For better or worse, Fremer is a bit more than an audio critic at this point. He is also an audio celebrity and his presence creates a draw which is valuable to an audio salon. He doesn't have to endorse anything, he just shows up, and as such, getting his expenses paid to spin records and exchange bon mots with the people who have come to see him is scarcely a product endorsement. The salon is introducing and endorsing the product. Fremer is there as a crowd draw and an entertainer. I don't see anything out of order for his getting travel expenses.

 

[Mobiusman]

Maier Shadi, proprietor of The Audio Salon in Santa Monica, California, is hosting Marc Gomez’ United States debut of the new SAT turntable:

“SAT presents the new XD1 Record Player System in the US at an exclusive event on June 1st from 12pm-6pm at The Audio Salon in Santa Monica, CA.

SAT's designer and founder, Marc Gomez, will go through the design and development of his latest CF1 and LM series of arms and explain the differences with the original SAT Pickup Arm. Gomez will also show the technical details about the XD1, explaining how a compact and minimalistic design can produce such a grand and effortless sound.

We have invited Michael Fremer to indulge the participants by presenting and playing some unique and amazing sounding records.

The XD1 will play on the Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic and Master Subsonic loudspeakers. Electronics by Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems, equipment stands by Harmonic Resolution Systems and wired together with Transparent Audio’s Magnum Opus cables. We will play our pick up arms with the Lyra Atlas SL and Ortofon MC Century cartridges.

This event will be an OPEN HOUSE (no rsvp necessary) with multiple presentations throughout the day.”

contact: Maier Shadi
The Audio Salon, Inc.
@ The Bergamot Station
2525 Michigan Ave (Gallery F1)
Santa Monica, CA 90404
Phone: 310.863.0863

I definitely will be going! I am curious for the turntable debut, but I really want to hear again vinyl on the Wilson Audio Chronosonic system!

Ron,

I am jealous. It sounds like there is a lot to hear at this open house that I would be very interested in. Can't wait for your impressions