SAT XD-1 Turntable Debut at The Audio Salon

[Steve Williams]

Ok

Enough is enough

Michael I would never come over to your side of the internet and post such expletives. It serves no purpose other than to lower the worth others value your opinions.

You are a legend in the industry but TBH reading how you post makes me angry that you feel your status in the industry gives you leave to come here and talk the way you do

Have you ever heard the song "killing me softly with your words". I really believe that if you have a point to make I suggest you try being a gentleman about it

FWIW I know Mike Lavigne and I find it bothersome that you call him a liar

You really just lost a lot of brownie points here with me today Michael. Tactless is a word that comes to mind. I feel it reasonable for you to reply here to the posts but the manner in which you did it is just plain offensive. BTW I will be in Santa Monica Saturday with Ron. Perhaps we can meet

 

[bonzo75]

Mike Lavigne doesn't make things up. He is a complete gentleman of the industry and embraces the hobby in every way. Apart from building possibly the best system to hosting, sharing, teaching, posting. I envy the gentlemanly way he posts. And yeah I like Fremer's reviews too. I don't doubt the integrity. He is right to defend his reputation and correct where people were wrong but saying Mike "made up" is a bit much.

It would be good if such experienced people worked together instead of fighting there is loads of experience in there all of us could benefit.

 

[ddk]

Everything you have just posted is ignorant and infantile. And untrue as well. First: Gomez has degrees and graduate degrees in material science and mechanical engineering. Compared to most turntable designers he is spectacularly overqualified. Your claim about me and this brand is absurd. I have gone out of my way to support and praise many brands I think make excellent products. I could name a DOZEN or more. And I can name as well the ones I don’t. In this case I am more supporting The Audio Salon and owner Maier Shadi than I am SAT because he has been helpful to me. At the last event I was “supporting” TechDAS not SAT. I gave the original AF 1 a less than enthusiastic review by the way. Your attempts to deflect and minimize the insinuations about me and my motives on this thread just don’t cut it.

There’s no insinuation or deflection I told you straight what’s the perception out there. This has nothing to do with Maier or TechDas it’s about you and SAT and you’re it selling again!

Edit- I don't generally go after industry members openly until they decide to attack everyone for self promotion. Your overqualified engineer took a $3500-$4500 (ex-works) Technics and dumped it in a plinth (is it a Technics?) and then took aim at others like Nishikawa San whose numerous products are still in service after decades and claimed this;

"We are specially proud to have surpassed, in our XD1 record player, the level of performance of the most respected big turntables, in a compact, minimalistic, elegant and easy to use package. The real challenge is to provide all the sound attributes typical of the top big turntables, without their functional and reliability drawbacks. By suppressing all superfluousness and concentrating on the engineering essentials, Gomez has created another masterpiece with the distinctive engineering and performance of his arms."

Where are the facts again? Which is the current top turntable with complexity besides AF0? I have degrees and Michael Fremer as bullhorn doesn't cut it for everyone, sorry!

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

The way I see product claims is that if you're gonna pitch a product at top echelon pricing, it almost demands the need to say yr product outperforms these. A $5k tt has dozens and dozens of competitors. A $200k tt w arm has literally less competitors than the fingers on one hand. Of course you're going to say it goes beyond, otherwise why wouldn't one buy an AF1P or AS2000 w dedicated arm?

Whether Marc has done any side by side comparisons, that's another matter.

Maybe this is the reason AF don't demo their tts, incl the 0, w SAT arms anymore.

I take on board Fremer's comment that the SAT tt is not a replinthed S10R.

 

[Steve Williams]

I am going to ask that no further chip shots be taken at anyone and that move on and keep this thread on topic

Yes, I said Fremer has a right to defend himself but the manner in which he did it is IMO just as "infantile" (as he called that of ddk) and frankly offensive, unflattering and down right boorish

Challenge the posts Michael, not take aim at the posters in the offensive manner in which you did.

As Ked said we all have a lot to learn from everyone but to be so dogmatic and frankly offensive when he called Mike Lavigne a liar. Mike is probably the most upfront and steadfast posters here at WBF

 

[ddk]

The way I see product claims is that if you're gonna pitch a product at top echelon pricing, it almost demands the need to say yr product outperforms these. A $5k tt has dozens and dozens of competitors. A $200k tt w arm has literally less competitors than the fingers on one hand. Of course you're going to say it goes beyond, otherwise why wouldn't one buy an AF1P or AS2000 w dedicated arm?

Whether Marc has done any side by side comparisons, that's another matter.

Maybe this is the reason AF don't demo their tts, incl the 0, w SAT arms anymore.

I take on board Fremer's comment that the SAT tt is not a replinthed S10R.

At this high level many owners are experienced and already have multiple turntables even R2R, it's a collection not a fight over dollars.

david

 

[cjfrbw]

Is it time to call in Curley, Larry and Moe yet?

That must have been a fun demo with everybody lunging at each others' throats. I hope no audio gear was harmed in the making of this demo.

 

[Ron Resnick]

To make a guest appearance for a demo isn't the issue my problem is with a compensated reviewer aggressively pushing wares of a particular dealer at the same time .

david

Dear David,

Whatt are you talking about?

Michael did no such thing at the demo with the Air Force Zero.

Why don’t you ask me what, if anything, Michael said rather than making stuff up?

Ron

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I am not being “compensated”. I am having my expenses covered. But even were I being compensated for making appearances in stores or for shlepping my records across the country or around the world, why shouldn’t I be compensated for doing this work? How many of the knuckleheads charging me with being “corrupt” work for nothing?

Dear Michael,

I agree completely!

Of course you should be compensated for your expenses, and I have no issue whatsoever with you being compensated for being the master of ceremonies of the event and for playing DJ.

You know I was at your event with Maier the entire second day. I am happy to sign an affidavit attesting to the fact that nothing you said or did smacked in any way of being a salesman for the products. Peter definitely was promoting the speaker system, but you were not.

And even if you did speak effusively positively about the products, there still is nothing wrong with that. You are a long time owner of Wilson Audio speakers and of the SAT tonearm. You genuinely like these products. If you hear good things from them at a demo I expect you to report that.

On the facts I know I just don’t see any problem or ethical issue here whatsoever.

 

[ddk]

Dear David,

what are you talking about?

Michael did no such thing at the demo with the Air Force Zero.

Why don’t you ask me what, if anything, Michael said rather than making stuff up?

Ron

Dear Ron,

What stuff did I make up?

The original conversation had nothing to do with Michael or anyone else for that matter. Tim who's a reviewer asked a general question about how people here feel about making compensated appearances. I replied to Tim that getting compensated for an event isn't a problem by itself but will be if the relationship turns into something else. As far as I was concerned I'm replying to Tim not accusing anyone of anything. Read the entire thread no one else accused Michael of anything in this regard. Micheal's name came up by others in other unrelated posts which he reacted to and decided that it was about him.

What I said about the appearance of impropriety has to do with his own behavior when it comes to anything SAT. No one ever attacked his reviews or thought anything of them until he started bashing whoever who disagrees with his POV. The same thing happened today, please point to where me or anyone else made stuff up about Michael.

david

 

[ALF]

David, you make me giggle

Cheers!
ALF

 

[ddk]

David, you make me giggle

Cheers!
ALF

Yep, barrels of laughs !

david

 

[XV-1]

A valid comparison like this is impossible if one wants to maintain any semblance of intellectual honesty about it.

Ron. The root cause of all the angst on this thread is yourself. Any comparisons from Fremer will be, well.

A view I and others have disagreed with completely.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, looking fwds to how this tt sounds.

It looks like it may be taking the path of vibration management and isolation of various tt/arm components from each other via materials and geometry choices.

I'm guessing this is a total alternative to the current SOTA choices centered more on air isolation in Vyger, AS and AF options.

 

[tima]

David is correct in his characterization - at least that's how I understand it. Apparently analogplanet, evidence aside, arrogated our discussion to be about himself; draw your own conclusions. The response pattern - stamp your feet and write in all caps - certainly was nothing new.

 

[marty]

This is an unfortunate and non-productive turn in a thread that makes me want to shy away from the forum. I know most of the WBF members in this scuttle and have been fortunate to learn from many of them. Unfortunately, casting negative aspersions about Mr. Lavigne crossed a line for me as we all know Mike as a true gentleman.

That said, I don’t know Mr. Fremer personally but have enjoyed the benefits of his writing, music recommendations and appearances on several occasions and for a long time. But to criticize him for being compensated for anything he does is irrelevant and wrong. That applies to compensation for travel, product endorsement, industry consulting and appearances. The only requisite for any activity for which he is compensated is full disclosure, which as far as I can tell, he has always done. Kudos to him. If you were to take a poll of his appearances at AXPONA for example at the Von Schweikert booth, the audience loved his record selection as well as his presentation which combined technical expertise and insight with colloquial mannerisms that would make him a hit on a late-night TV. So what if he likes vanilla ice-cream and prefers it to chocolate or strawberry? Nobody is putting a gun to anyone’s head to heed his advice and eat only vanilla ice-cream. Why the hell shouldn’t he feel free to express his views and be compensated for his professional activities as long as he discloses his interests? If he told me he doesn’t like Dr. Brown’s cream soda, that wouldn’t stop me from drinking it. Would you?

By the way, I say this coming from a world of medicine and pharmaceuticals where believe me, the public has no idea of the whoring that goes on regularly in that profession in which there are more ways to avoid disclosure than one can possibly imagine. (You can read about them in the paper almost every day). The activities that we are discussing here are so insignificant and petty by comparison (nobody is dying because they use the “wrong” tonearm), that criticisms of his activities just seem ridiculously trivial to me. If you don’t like what he has to say, turn the page or leave the room. Let’s stop questioning his ethics by assuming he has clandestine motivations. He’s a long-time educator in our chosen hobby (and more than a decent entertainer). Sad part is, if he ever had the opportunity to spend time with Mike at the barn, I'll bet they’d have a good time together.

 

[ddk]

This is an unfortunate and non-productive turn in a thread that makes me want to shy away from the forum. I know most of the WBF members in this scuttle and have been fortunate to learn from many of them. Unfortunately, casting negative aspersions about Mr. Lavigne crossed a line for me as we all know Mike as a true gentleman.

That said, I don’t know Mr. Fremer personally but have enjoyed the benefits of his writing, music recommendations and appearances on several occasions and for a long time. But to criticize him for being compensated for anything he does is irrelevant and wrong. That applies to compensation for travel, product endorsement, industry consulting and appearances. The only requisite for any activity for which he is compensated is full disclosure, which as far as I can tell, he has always done. Kudos to him. If you were to take a poll of his appearances at AXPONA for example at the Von Schweikert booth, the audience loved his record selection as well as his presentation which combined technical expertise and insight with colloquial mannerisms that would make him a hit on a late-night TV. So what if he likes vanilla ice-cream and prefers it to chocolate or strawberry? Nobody is putting a gun to anyone’s head to heed his advice and eat only vanilla ice-cream. Why the hell shouldn’t he feel free to express his views and be compensated for his professional activities as long as he discloses his interests? If he told me he doesn’t like Dr. Brown’s cream soda, that wouldn’t stop me from drinking it. Would you?

By the way, I say this coming from a world of medicine and pharmaceuticals where believe me, the public has no idea of the whoring that goes on regularly in that profession in which there are more ways to avoid disclosure than one can possibly imagine. (You can read about them in the paper almost every day). The activities that we are discussing here are so insignificant and petty by comparison (nobody is dying because they use the “wrong” tonearm), that criticisms of his activities just seem ridiculously trivial to me. If you don’t like what he has to say, turn the page or leave the room. Let’s stop questioning his ethics by assuming he has clandestine motivations. He’s a long-time educator in our chosen hobby (and more than a decent entertainer). Sad part is, if he ever had the opportunity to spend time with Mike at the barn, I'll bet they’d have a good time together.

Who criticized his activities Marty?

david

 

[ALF]

Just my observations...

tima, another reviewer, I do not know him; however, a question comes to mind....does he have his own successful commercial business and webpage; for example, like MF’s AP?

DDK, a good guy known for teaching the AS guys to use a deck of cards to successfully set their VTA. However, he has admitted that he has four times been unable to correctly setup a SAT tonearm. Not really sure why he is disparaging this other guy’s TA and TT?

Cheers!
ALF

 

[ddk]

Just my observations...

tima, another reviewer, I do not know him; however, a question come to mind....does he have his own successful commercial webpage; for example, like MF’s AP?

DDK, a good guy known for teaching the AS guys to use a deck of cards to successfully set their VTA. However, he has admitted that he has four times been unable to correctly setup a SAT tonearm. Not really sure why he is disparaging this other guy’s TA and TT?

Cheers!
ALF

What are you stirring the pot for Alan?

Please don't make things up, I said that on four occasions SAT's were setup side by side with other tonearms and they had nothing in common sonically with one another. I don't setup other tonearms on purpose to avoid snide comments like yours! In every case set up was either handled by the vendors or their setup guys. Get your facts right if you want to crawl out and attack.

david

 

[ALF]

What are you stirring the pot for Alan?

Please don't make things up, I said that on four occasions SAT's were setup side by side with other tonearms and they had nothing in common sonically with one another. I don't setup other tonearms on purpose to avoid snide comments like yours! In every case set up was either handled by the vendors or their setup guys. Get your facts right if you want to crawl out and attack.

david

...ooooooohhhhhhh

“standing” up here, you seem to be overly sensitive...any thoughts why?

Cheers!
ALF