Seeking Advise on New TT/Cart Purchase

[Robes]

Hello all. I’m looking for a new turntable for my vintage stereo system. I have been doing some research and note that many of the audiophiles who respond to such threads want to know what the current system specs are of the OP. So, this maybe a long thread but hope to get it right the 1st time. I believe the components of interest would be the following. CONTROL/ PRE AMP: Yamaha C-85, 1988 $765 ; POWER AMP: Yamaha M-65, 1988 $720 ; REAL TIME SPECTRUM ANALYZER/EQUALIZER: AudioControl C-101, 1988 $430 ; LOUD SPEAKERS: JBL Control Monitors Model 4312, 1990 2@ $840. These components have had the best of care & although I couldn’t guess the hours on them they have never really been cranked up volume wise due to living arrangements. Since my TT had been stolen in ’87 they have probably had a 100 hours of use. See attachments for specs.

I’m looking at investing around $5K including cartridge and have familiarized myself with the following companies and models within that price range: Clearaudio, Rega, Music Hall, Project, Linn, VPI. I have also looked at several others not mentioned here. I have looked at some Cartridges but feel I need to decide on a TT first. I’m not in a big rush and would consider used (TT and/or Cart) but I really think it would have to be a guaranteed deal (possible demo, open box, etc.) from trusted known individual/dealer/certified rebuild to greatly lessen chance of fraud (however that could play out). Going the new route is simply safe but…. At this point in my searching I’m looking at the VPI Prime and something like the Zephyr MKIII Cart (read review using it) or Ortofon MC Quintet Black, but hope to avoid having to alter the stock tone arm because Cart requires a different “head shell”. Seems most recommended Carts for the Prime are also MC not MM. From my reading it also seems of benefit to go with the “Periphery Outer Ring Clamp” to this VPI Prime (saw this clamp available aftermarket cheaper).

Lots of questions but think my system needs to be evaluated by some of you experts as to what a good match would be, maybe I’m overshooting, and won’t benefit from spending this much? I have over 300 albums in excellent shape to which I stopped buying after my Pioneer PL-71 direct drive with Stanton EEE was stolen in 1987. At that time to now I have continued my music collection but on CD’s, not duplicating my albums. I would like to start playing my collection and buying vinyl again.

Besides the numerous number of TT’s & Cart selections out there since I last shopped this category I see other things. Most notable is that direct drive seems to be too expensive now and/or belt drive simply is the best option in my price range. I see in the reviews most TT’s are also coupled to a “Phono Stage”, another pricey item, but do I need this with my Yamaha Pre Amp? Then the cable questions, I have RCA jack gold plated monster cables through out my system will these suffice?

Thanks Robes View attachment 35005View attachment 35004View attachment 35006View attachment 35007View attachment 35008

 

[Loheswaran]

New or second hand?

 

[Loheswaran]

Can I just say, try and spend the bulk on the TT then the arm, then the cart. Also look for upgradeability as well. I auditioned several decks before I bought my first proper TT.

I am a huge fan of the Townshend line of TT's from old Elite Rocks through to the current Rock 7 - which incidentally has a good upgrade path. I have the older Elite Rock 2 - I absolutely love it - the silicone trough is a real arm equaliser - very master tape like. The Funk Firm line of decks are exceptionally 'correct' sounding both neutral and musical at the same time.

5k gets you a great piece of second hand kit

 

[Robes]

Thanks for the reply Loheswaran. I spend a few hours looking into the Rock 7 today, I never heard of Townshend before. I never knew about the damping silicone trough system either. The links I found to the Townshend Home: http://www.townshendaudio.com/ don't even list turntables under their products line, strange. The only other access was the USA distributer EAR: http://www.ear-usa.com/. I found 4-5 reviews but all short not saying much. But this review: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/townshend.htm was good.

The "positive- feedback" review did point out some real difficulties (about 10 paragraphs down in review) with the Rock 7, don't know if they are/were applicable to your models. Seems you can spend allot of money on finding the right power cord to get good sound from the TT, so much, that the reviewer considered it almost a toss up between buying so many power cords and just buying Townshends DC motor which would work with any cheap cord for $1900.00. Considering that amount (a tonearm or cart in price) it rather throws a damper on that model, especially being it doesn't come with arm or cart.

The reviews never mention any adjustments for tonearm tracking, maybe that's part of the arm you buy? For example, I was wondering how "anti-skate" is used, I would think with the paddle moving through a viscus fluid there would have to be some compensation for that, but I don't see it addressed anywhere let alone list TT's under products they make- strange again. I have to say reading about the Rock 5 definitely kept my attention but there could be more said & that coupled with being made in the EU makes things a little more difficult to resolve, especially when the "PF" reviewer explicitly states be sure to work with a good dealer for set-up. I only found the EAR dealer in Long Beach in my surfing, I think there are more, either way I live in Western MT and likely no chance to find a distributor anywhere near me.

Never-the-less, I am intrigued by Townshend & will not be taking that off my list. I will put more time into my studies here. Thank you for the recommendation!
Robes-

 

[Loheswaran]

I personally think that the power cord is a red herring. Mine is the old elite rock. I think it to be a better deck. That said, in a blind test I doubt I would be able to say they have a massive difference. Check out the the absolute sound mag review and also an older article by Robert green on his blog regon audio.
The trough is where the magic is at though.
Whatever you do trust ur ears, use advice as pointers only.

 

[tima]

...I see in the reviews most TT’s are also coupled to a “Phono Stage”, another pricey item, but do I need this with my Yamaha Pre Amp?

All tonearms feed their cartridge's output into a phono stage, where gain and the RIAA curve are applied to the signal. A "preamp" contains a phono stage and a line stage - that's what your Yamaha unit offers. A preamp without a phono stage is called a line stage. If you only have a line stage, you need to add a separate phono stage - that's not your situation.

PS - Put some money aside for a rudimentary means to keep your records clean. Vinyl newbies and returnees lose interest quickly playing dirty records.

 

[Robes]

Thanks again for you input, I will look up those reviews not to mention used elite rock models. Most likely I'll never hear one unless I buy it but it really struck me to read about the damping system, not to mention it can be added to most any tonearm on any TT. This has totally changed how I look at things, I really think no matter what I go with it will have the "Trough". I'm running this post on multiple forums to help with my questions. I will let you know how it ends-
Robes

 

[Robes]

Hi Tima-
I have (on other forums) been told that yes my Pre-amp will suffice but on the MM side it is a standard 47K-ohms and best MM cart response (I guess, meaning in most respects) is 100x amplification, I assume that means 100K-ohms rather then the 47K-ohms listed. I have no one saying the MC side has any limitations. From my readings I tend to think MM is the way to go, yet so many carts (high end at that) are MC today but MM can match them at much lower price. It seems MC out weighs MM on the market. I've had two responses on other forums, that with my set-up and my ~$5K limit on TT + cart & arm etc. say go with an MM cart despite the std 47 pre amp limitation and consider later upgrade with phono stage. Do you have any comment to that? Well appreciate you reply, thank you.

I have always kept my records clean, at least I thought. I'm sure there are multi million dollar ways it's done today. I used the DISC cleaning method, run a bead of solution along the micro fiber cloth wrapped within a nice 2x 4" wood block. I am very concerned about cleaning, my collection (although well cared for) has not been opened in a couple decades (sealed in tightly fit boxes and taped shut). I still haven't open them, not till I get a TT. I just haven't looked into cleaning albums as yet, I fear what I'll see, so I'll look to proved methods I may find (no matter how time intensive) to give them a rebirth- if possible. Your comments here well appreciated also. Again, thanks for you time and comments-
Robes

 

[tima]

47K Ohms is pretty standard loading - typically the default a manufacturer expects - for a moving magnet cartridge - that should be fine. Moving coils vary from cart to cart for what load each prefers - looks like the Yamaha pre defaults to 1000 Ohms for MC. Your larger concern for moving coil is gain, which maybe I missed it but didn't see any spec for MC gain. Moving coil carts can go very low in their output voltage. There are some fine MCs that may fit in your price range, but pay attention to their output, although low to mid-priced moving coils do tend toward higher output. The last MM I used some years back was a Grado Sonata - very pleasent with decent low frequency articulation, though not overall high resolution but still a very satisfying cartridge. MM typically have higher output and gain is not the issue it is for MC. As for moving coil, the Denon DL-103r is a super value. Its output is on the low side, vaguely remembering .025mV so again, check the MC gain on your preamp. Plenty on the Web about that cart.

Handling and playing records can/will get them dirty. Playing dirty records can degrade them further, possibly permanently. Consider the Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions cleaning fluids along with distilled water or reagent grade water - my own coverage here. You can use those fluids for manual cleaning. With thorough rinsing allow your records to air dry. There are also various machines and devices. Do your own research - there's plenty of info about record cleaning on the Web - then come back with questions.

For a while now I haven't been up on turntables in your price category, but I know people who are. For the money you're talking about I'd consider a VPI package or maybe the Technics SL1200G. Keep it simple to start. It also possible to go around $2k and get a decent starter machine. I'd keep cartridge price under $600 and suggest starting with moving magnet. To be perfectly frank, I suggest you keep a low entry point for an analog system that is commensurate with the rest of your gear. You don't want a front-end where the rest of your gear cannot deliver on its potential. I didn't do the math, but $5k is probably more than the rest of your system and imo, that's out of balance. Good luck getting back into vinyl - it can be fun and very rewarding.