Sme 3012 R

I know this old arm is good but I don’t know why David,Rockitman,Tang,Ron,Mike
Use or will use having top tonearm like Sat,EliteAxiom,Black Beauty,Durand

Why 3012 is so special?
I never had and I don’t understand
Only to know for my curiosity
Regards
Gian

 

Are these expensive records limited to classical or is that the same for original issue jazz?

For me yes. Original Jazz can go for that and more and are usually not in as good condition as the classical lp's from the same time period. In general there was more play and handling on the Jazz records.

 

Interesting thread so far. Here’s to great vintage arms, conical styli and ancient cabling... not unlike good old wines, but thankfully technology has subjectively improved, much like fine wine making techniques.

Nice slighted post. Have anything interesting to contribute ? Didn't think so.

 

Christian, what styli do you think most of the old jazz records were played with...just curious?

 

Classical, jazz, rock... Like good quality Beatles will be really expensive.

Essentially all the labels you buy, whether Decca or blue note, etc, there are original pressings, reissues by the label itself, and reissues by other companies like classic records, analog productions, etc. For the originals you need to learn to read labels and matrices to know whether it is first, second, edition or repress and more importantly source the originals in good condition should you want to collect them

Like you said, condition is extremely important...learning how to evaluate that is imperative. Rarity is another factor, many of the original classical pieces were distributed in large numbers and so are not that collectible.
Same goes for rock. OTOH, some of the original jazz pieces are quite rare and many times valuable..even in less than pristine condition. Mono pressings are also not to be overlooked...most of the great jazz was recorded in mono...Yet most of the mono classical LP's aren't that collectible. Many good articles and books on collecting LP's...and valuing them. Makes for great reading.

 

OTOH, some of the original jazz pieces are quite rare and many times valuable..even in less than pristine condition. Mono pressings are also not to be overlooked...most of the great jazz was recorded in mono.

For sure. The original mono releases are not only the best version for many of the albums but also the most difficult to find and most expensive.

Fortunately, Music Matters Jazz did a great job with their Blue Note reissue program where many of them are in mono. Analogue Productions as well.

 

Nice slighted post. Have anything interesting to contribute ? Didn't think so.

Hint: try newer technology. Works wonders.

 

Hint: try newer technology. Works wonders.

 

For sure. The original mono releases are not only the best version for many of the albums but also the most difficult to find and most expensive.

Fortunately, Music Matters Jazz did a great job with their Blue Note reissue program where many of them are in mono. Analogue Productions as well.

+1

Agreed 100%. I am in the process of collecting the Music Matters LP's...they are all superb. Many are even better than my original Blue Notes! ( inner groove noise is generally far less than the originals).

 

+1

Agreed 100%. I am in the process of collecting the Music Matters LP's...they are all superb. Many are even better than my original Blue Notes! ( inner groove noise is generally far less than the originals).

I have all the Music Matters on 45rpm are those the ones you're talking about. I am so glad I did get on that list from the start.

 

Hint: try newer technology. Works wonders.

Christian already has. see AF1 + Phantom Elite.

He seems to be listening to what he enjoys most now, not what is newest.

 

What is the configuration of the tonearm wire in the 3012R? The exact detail of it?

Also does the tonearm sound not recessed, with non-small imaging that isn't forward but sounds a little bigger, not huge?

 

Interesting thread so far. Here’s to great vintage arms, conical styli and ancient cabling... not unlike good old wines, but thankfully technology has subjectively improved, much like fine wine making techniques.

Absolutely terrible analogy. The technology of wine making has not changed, a 1986 Château Ausone is absolutely better than a 2018 Château Ausone.

 

I have all the Music Matters on 45rpm are those the ones you're talking about. I am so glad I did get on that list from the start.

Actually I am talking about the Music Matters 33rpm and the 45rpm releases. I own several dupes of the 45 and the 33's...in many instances I think the 33's actually sound slightly better. Add to that the minimal benefit of not having to get up and change sides so often, and I would say that IF one has a choice between the 33 or the 45, then the 33 is oddly enough the one to go for. Wish i was on the list from the start, but I came to these relatively late...so collecting them now.

 

Dear Sirs,

You are all extremely intelligent and tasteful individuals.However this thread has managed to obviate the point.

The bayonet mount 3012r is legendary for many good reasons that are not subjective as long as all of the implementation rules are followed.

The V12 is no less legendary and should not be seen as better or worse merely different.This particular tonearm is able to accommodate a wider range of dynamic compliance.

In my opinion the EMT,3012r,Atlas and Subwoofer disconnection,have dramatically improved Tang's system.

The 3012r is best with low compliance transducers whereas the V12 is able to control high compliance light weight ones.

Personally I prefer the 3012r to the V12,because I am reasonably versed in set up I do not mind the extra challenges involved.

For a less committed listener the V12 is way easier to get right.

With regard to the vinyl you are all partly correct;some classical was pressed in larger numbers than jazz,some ED2 sound as good as ED1,

The most collectable classical is MONO,the most expensive classical is also mono i.e:Mozart a Paris was pressed 99 times(Pathe verti-cut)and ranges from £10,000-£!5,000.

The Praetorius Mozart,the Perlmuter Vox,the Taschner on Odeon,all the Lazare Levy on Ducretet,Thyssen Valentin nocturnes and too many others to mention.

The most sought after stereo recordings were made during the crossover period(1957-1961) the majority of which are superb despite the recording engineer's chagrin,the marketing departments rang the changes and stereo was born.

The irony of the whole thing is you,the Americans,taught us.Mercury were the best and best equipped engineers in the world.

Scully made the best lathes,WE made the best $%$%$%% everything and you sold it all to the far east.

Now companies are trying to replicate the golden era because the rest is average at best.

Kindest regards,G.

 

I understand. I have a sailboat that is still in production since 1994. They have built 500 or so since then. That is very unusual for a boat that was the most expensive boat of its type when introduced. There are quite a few on the used market at any time and they still sell for about the same price as when new. This is unheard of in the sailboat world. Buying this model new is so expensive that used boats retain value. The company has a hard time selling new boats for $280k when a used boat costs less than half and is almost just as good. Their main competition is the same boat on the used market. Alerion Express 28. I bought a boat from year 2000 Hull #156 in 2014 for the same amount that it sold for in 2000 new. I paid about 1/3 of new price. The original owner lost no money. Extremely unusual in the boat world. I guess this is now the case with 3012 except there are no new versions sold by SME.

So I now understand why SME can’t sell a new 3012r fuor $10k. But, they could sell it for less with warranty if it is so much better than V12. It is interesting that SME did not design their tables to fit the old arms. Why???

If I build an arm pod there will be criticism that conditions don’t match my suspended V12 or set up is different or whatever. I may also suffer now from extreme bias so will have to have my Boston Audio Group listen too. I am really curious to know and I do have three cartridges so that is a lot of possible combinations. Perhaps some day if I can find a NOS 3012r.

Dear Peter,

I really don’t get your extreme obsession with some kind of a mythic shootout, what is it that you want to prove? Music is an experience and that’s my approach to high end, does the system bring me a new experience with every recording or not, nothing else matters. IMO all this analysis by neurosis is not only a total waste of time it’s also counterproductive. You don’t need a NOS arm nor should it take you more than a few minutes to know wether you like the arm or not even, during setup.

High End Audio is a gift not only with the music it brings into our lives but the joy of sharing and meeting people that otherwise we’ll never know, this is what I treasure most and always have. My system approach is removal of filters and veils not perfection which doesn’t exist, in the end the closer you can get to the event the more real and visceral the experience. Some rare equipment like the 3012-R will get you there most others just pull you down further down the abyss if you it, as will the people around you.

david

 

As I am new to the forum my opinions may seem flawed by lack of knowledge.

My reference points are not as clear to all of you as they are to those that know me.

My own TTs are the best as far as I am concerned,this does not preclude my appreciation of an LP12 klimax even though I prefer a Voyd 3 motor.

SME do not now and never have made anything truly resolving.What they are is perfectly musical and that is rare in this field.

I posses two Vyger,three Garrard 301,two Thorens Reference,one Systemdek,two Pierre Clement,two 927,five Voyds and at least fifty tonearms.

The Vyger is the king of kings but I still enjoy many aspects of the mothballed others.

As far as the recordings are concerned,do not underestimate the transactions that take place off-line.

Kindest regards,G.

 

The Clement mono cart?

 

My own TTs are the best as far as I am concerned. SME do not now and never have made anything truly resolving.What they are is perfectly musical and that is rare in this fiield. The Vyger is the king of kings but I still enjoy many aspects of the mothballed others.

Hm, i think we have a challenge ! In the right corner Zerostargeneral weighing in at ......... lb with his Vyger with Vyger arm weighing........lb. In the left corner ddk weighing in at .......lb with his AS2000 weighing in at a truly heavyweight shape with 4 SME 3012R arms.
Neutral meeting ground, let’s say Switzerland ! Refereeing by a judging panel consisting of Ked,Ron, MikeL, Steve and Tang.If Tang like the Vyger better, he of course has to buy one !

 

Hmm, maybe this'll put to bed the preposterous notion that linear trackers can't exist at this rarefied level.

However, I foresee there never being a direct Vyger v AS shootout, too much at stake.

 

We don't need a winner... One is a boxer, one is a wrestler.

Plus, Mike L is MMA specialist and knows all the arts, so please don't leave his analog out